Shifting focus on the Umpire.....away from the real incident.. ...hehe, it's okay. I wasn't "baited or wearing a different hat last night" when i replied to your post. Just being courteous so i won't leave you hanging/ignore you. Plus it's just a reply, giving my opinion, not trying to debate w/you. Nothing more nothing less. Well, in the past, I used to just "waste" time in BC debating/discussing on many issues, but i've slowly learned to pick and choose which issue(s) to discuss/debate etc. "Sharp tongue of mine seen not too long ago??..When was that?? ..fair enough. Btw, pardon me for asking, who's "our neutral spokesperson"?? As i wrote in my the previous page, his judgment in the last bad line call came from what he believed where the shuttle landed (regardless whether his sight was bothered by LD's legs/body or not). It's true the Umpire most likely couldn't see it. But the point still remains, he still needed to make a decision. Put it also this way, say, if you were the Umpire in that position, you saw the shot landed, it looked "In" eventhough LD screamed and went frantic (almost like he did in the previous over-ruled calls), what decision would you make, at that moment? Would you be swayed by LD's reaction and over-ruled the call? Or would you stand by what you believed & judged where the shuttle landed (IMO, just as he did in the previous over-ruled calls)? ..i thought, in the video, the Umpire confirmed the score to LinDan, first, and then turned his head to the other side to confirm the score also. So, how would the idea of putting more consideration to LD or explaining that the Umpire did not see the shot could have prevented the whole episode in happening?? Well, what kind of explanation or consideration do you think will satisfy LinDan, eventhough the decision was "In"?? About the part i've highlighted in bold, how sure are you/we in knowing that he **actually could see** where the shots landed in the previous over-ruled calls??..He might've simply made ALL 5 decisions based on what he believed & judged where the shuttle landed. ..possible, and i wouldn't deny that. We just don't know IF the Umpire ever thought about calling a "Let" and re-playing the point, in that situation. I, for sure, if put in his spot, most likely would act the same as he did. Anyway, it's understandable that if issues like these pop up, we can get both sides of arguments. And we can go on and on and on and discuss about this issue, whether the Umpire should've over-ruled the last call even if he wasn't sure or he should explain to LD why he made the decision etc.. At the end of the day, IMO, the Umpire did the best he could. And i'm sure, if myself, yourself or others were in his spot, no matter how experienced or professional we can be, i doubt any of us could've done any better.
TH did not t get all the above you mentioned. He did not get the points and prize money, that's it. Find press conference on YouTube in thread: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38469
Not true. The other opponent would simply lose, meaning that you went back to where you were before the disputed call. If it was clearly out, and I was the opponent, then I would request the score be reverted correctly, but otherwise, just lose one to neutralize the situation. Well, if she's biased, and loving of her country, she should do so on the sidelines, not in a position where she might interfere with the results of the game.
you make choices of what your actions will be. you can choose to give up but play on and finish the match, you can choose to walk away and get fined and suspended from matches. you can throw racket at people and act aggresively. yes different people react differently. i think LCW had faced a shouting LYB before but i dont remember reading that he threw a racket or start a fight with LYB. i think the nature of the player dictates how they react. i think LCW might not react too violently (he is more a if-cannot-win-might-as-well-give-up kind of a person). TH might (based on his actions in sea games). LD certainly could as proven in the korea open. there is always an option. in the end we are the who decide how we would conduct ourselves. nobody else but ourselves. if we can make a comparison with the zidane and materazzi world cup fiasco, there are other factors that contributed to his headbutting incident. if you have not read about it, apprently materazzi said something about zidane's mother and sister. now, in any other place, anybody would react like zidane. headbutting might be the least of it. people could get killed saying things like that. no confrontation occur by itself and involves only one party. there must be things that happens that leads to it. now, zidane was given the red card. the french team lost playing with 10 men. how is it that much different from LD's actions? violence is violence. and how could anybody suggest that he should not be punished for what he did? just because other people do wrong should we follow suit? two wrongs does not make a right as apparent with the incident in korea open. it only takes one party to calm down and back off and the whole thing would have died down. but because words were shouted, gestures were aggresive, actions were violent, it escalated. i agree. actions should be taken with all party involved. i suggested in the "penalty for LD" thread that LD should be fined and suspended, LM should be fined and suspended from attending his charges matches and korea open organizer be fined and korean open suspended for one year. that should be fair to all party and hopefully a deterrent for any other players, coaches or tournament organizers to repeat this incident. he was responding to the fact that too many calls was against his player (does not mean the umpire and the overturned calls he made were wrong, he might just be concerned of his player's mental condition at that point and wanted to support him) . this, however, does not mean that what LM did was right. his subsequent actions escalated the whole fiasco. but that would be what any coach would do regardless of what transpire. like in football, even if you see your player's handball and the referee wants to give a penalty, you would still argue on your player's side. coaches all over the world do it. no different here i think.
I was joking. Thanks for the reply. Leen is the one. Our difference is at the word of "believed". How could he "believed" where the shuttle landed if he couldn't see? and How could it "looked" "In" without seeing it? In the previous overruled bad calls, he clearly saw where shuttlecocks landed (look at the video yourself to see the reaction of the umpire to the bad calls and his viewing area. Therefore, I was trying to point to you that there were major differences between the ones he corrected and the last one he let it stand. What "confirmed the score to LinDan, first" meant? He looked at LD with an expression on his face that he believed the call was good. But if he had really seen the shot, he would know the shot was bad. That's why LD thought the umpire was not being honest and helpful. If he simply explain to LD that he could not see the last shot, but it's called in by relying on others, and there was no alternative to his decision (provided a "Let" was not an option), I'm positive LD would have understood the situation and gone back to play. Everyone has those tight spot and gets jammed, asking for help and understanding. I'm sure most ppl would respond positively. I don't think LD cared that much about winning or losing, he was very angry at the mis-treatment and injustice he got in MSF KO 08. I would act it differently by talking to LD to see what kind solution would be possible since there had been a pattern of those biased calls. You're in US, you know how a pattern of something is one of the most effective arguments. There is a Chinese text of the phone interview between the umpire and a reporter, if you understand Chinese: http://news.wenxuecity.com/messages/200801/news-gb2312-516590.html. The title reads "...The umpire acknowledged the wrong call made LD being raged". The umpire stated that he could not see the shot in or out because it landed behind LD's back, so he looked at linesmen/lineswomen, who indicated firmly the shot had been in, and he looked at the TV referee, who also gave him the same answer, so he insisted the shot was good, but when he looked later on video, the shot was out and the call was a mistake. The umpire said LD walked over to tell him the shot had gone out. Because LD and LM was at a very close range and LM said something to LD, then LD became very angry and the two started arguing. The umpire said he could understand LD and due to the intense competition, players were very tense and temper flared out of control was understandable. If someone else in LD's shoes, he might be even more angry than LD. The umpire said he noticed some bad line calls which obviously should not have happened, which made him to correct them constantly and made him angry.
Let's not put the Umpire in a hot seat.. ..*sigh*..okay, i had a feeling it will come to this, early on. But anyway, i'll reply & entertain you one more time on your case about the Umpire's position...Hopefully, others will come in and discuss/debate/banter/entertain w/you on this issue.. As for me, and as i said before, the Umpire in the 2008 KO MSF did his best and i, for one, can't ask for anything more than what he had done. What we're doing/discussing now are just hindsights/"what ifs" he did this & that etc. To what purpose? Isn't it better to look fw and hope for a better one in the future? To an extent, i would give a bit of credit to the KO Open Organizer for allowing neutral Umpires in all of the Finals matches; imagine if they didn't.. ..okay, fair enough..But as i asked/wrote in my previous post, even if he didn't see/wasn't sure about where the shuttle landed for the last bad line call, tell me how was he going to call it? Do you expect him to change the call? Explaining to LinDan about why he made the decision, at that moment, etc (like you suggested), IMO, would be fruitless, even if he upheld his "In" call. In the report, he clearly made the decision based on the line-judge's and tv referee's views who had "better" views of where the shuttle landed. He made the decision, UNINTENTIONALLY, but later he realized it was a wrong one. So, now, can we all live with it? ..hmm, I believe prior to LinDan going berserk, he had already accepted & understood the decision by the Umpire. In other words, LD didn't get mad at the Umpire. LD's outburst was indirectly related to what he saw/imagined what LiMao was saying/doing (harmless or not). I'm sure you've read the Umpire's account that LiMao muttered something first, before LinDan threw his racket; maybe even made some gestures which made LinDan upset. The Umpire is not at fault, at least UNINTENTIONALLY. ..yes, i've read that article/translation in the locked thread. Last comment in our small discussion, before i stop replying: Considering all the things that have happened in the MSF match, esp. all the over-ruled bad calls, who do you think was the only who's probably "awake" and "aware" of what's going on throughout the entire match? Other than the last wronged call, do you think the Umpire was fair and square in what he did? If so, then let's not put the Umpire on the hot seat as he did his best and i, for one, can't ask for anything more than what he had done. *If you want to discuss more about this, PM me. We can discuss it through there. I'm sure you know where to find me.
Sorry I don't know where to find you since detectives usually are very elusive. But I don't see any difference between us to PM you beyond here. You ask me if the umpire did a good job? My answer is yea and I would give him a A plus. Could he do even better or somethings differently, I'm sure he could. There never be anything could not be improved and nothing was, is, and will be perfect.
^^Case closed..^^ (thank you for your answer and last sentence of your post. I think we can all agree on that). ..PM me if you'd still like to discuss about this. The Agency of BadmintonCentral Detectives will be here & listening. If not, then the ABCD considers this case as : closed.
i was wondering, we read a lot of reports from chinese newspapers and reporters and also malaysian reporters and reuters. what does other countries journalists saying about this incident? what are the korean newspapers and reporters saying. interesting to know if they did not report anything on this matter and more so if they neglect to point out their countrymen's bad line calls not just in the finals but throughout the tournaments. anybody read any reports from korea?
Ah ha, you finally left the comfort of your tree & flew there. Yes, I already read the threads there. The suspension and fine part was mentioned by Huang & a few other BCers. As you know, Huang knows the Indonesia team well, he doesnt simply say stuff. In the KO threads, I asked where they got the info from, or was that punishment for another tournament, they were too heated up in the debates to answer. I'm still 'flying' about, trying to find that part but..... it was too long ago. Nvm, we shall see what decision BWF makes from this. Definitely, future newbies, KO 08, CO 07 threads very interesting read.
In the 1st place, I dont think there's any BCer who can speak or read Korean, so nobody post the news.
I saw the video before, did not need to go and find it this time. But in the thread cooler wrote: "Nope. I guess it was an agreed settlement on a condition of non-disclosure of the case. It's hard to prove a case base on who said what between 2 people." I don't know what he meant by "non-disclosure"? Was anything more than what was given out in the conference? From the video, it did not appear that way.
If you watch the video, the spokesman said "The evidence was not complete." About what cooler said, that's easy, he's still roaming the forum, ask him if he remembers.
i hope systems like hawk-eye will be ready to be impelemented by that time..since spectators n fans will become more n more sensitive about line judging.Even one or two misscalls will cause spectators to think that the team win the game by fault.We don't wish that to happend..n somehow the judging teams r haven't fulfill our demands n hope yet.So,the best to prevent that kind of accidents happend,we need lenses!
I agree that everyone makes own choices and faces consequences. Otherwise, we'll all be Saint by now. The comparison of LCW facing shouting of LYB if true still would be different from LD's case in MSF KO 08. That's a football star if I remember the incident correctly. Again it showed player reacted differently to things. But we would never know what zidane or even LCW in LD's shoes would have done. We only can say the probability for them to do something like what LD did would be very low. Many ppl would agree with you on this, but right and wrong are relative speaking. If one person hits another, it's wrong; but the second person may hit back, that may not be wrong because it can be called "self-defense". So depending on the circumstances, things may be interpreted differently in a case by case basis. Not everything is clear cut with a cookie cutter. I wish this really became a wake-up call for everyone to examine their conducts and their souls, including the fans, like us in the forum (BCers couldn't threw rackets at each other, so sometimes they throw bad words and insults, and tempers do flare quite often). I had no problems with coaches supporting their respective players. But if LM just told LHI quietly what he thought on LHI's side of the court, things would have been fine. He was interfering with the discussion between LD and the umpire. What business he had to tell what the umpire should do? What business LM had with shouting at LD and telling him what to do? LD is not a player of KO team, if LM really wanted LD to do something, he should ask ZB first. I though what LM did was a dirty trick to get to LD's temper and to affect LD's play. Again your analogy of coaches in other sports, like football, is not a good one. What LD did would be a peanut and none event comparing to many other sports. Hockey players fight with heavy sticks, LD only threw a light racket. So coaches in different sports may do things differently from the sports of baddy. I would suggest playing like the old day. Keeping out the coaches from the courts and ear-shout of players. Don't even let them talk to players during breaks. Let players play, pure and simple and see how well they have been trained in advance.
During the interval/break, coaches and trainees can talk to one another . Something important has been brought out (in the quote above). IMHO...... During play, a player can talk to the umpire. I stress that for complains of any kind, the player should only direct them to the umpire, not to the lines judges, not to the service judges, not to the opponent, and not to the coach. The umpire controls the play. During play, a coach can talk to the referee. I stress that for complains of any kind, the coach should only direct them to the referee, not to the umpire, not to the service judges, not to lines judges, not to the opponent or trainee. The referee controls the tournament. It is during the interval/break when coaches and trainees can talk to one another. .
how is it different? please explain. both involves coaches shouting at the player not under his charge. how is it different? because LD nearly won and LCW did not? nothing should excuse bad behaviour. i think the probability is very high. sport are emotional. tensions run high. but if you succumb to that pressure and acted badly, you have to apologize and received you punishment. no matter what sport, what situation or who. i think some wrong are clear cut. throwing a racket away from yourself aiming at a place where there are people without those people harming you with bodily harm in the first place, whether you hit them or not, is wrong. do you say otherwise? a child in anger hits his brother for teasing him, would you not tell him that hitting is wrong? would you encourage the act of hitting? self defense is when you retaliate to what was done to you. people hit you, you hit back. but if people are shouting to you, why not just shout back. why try to hit with racket? or throw it in their direction? yes, i do read a lot of posts that are very biased, whether for or against LD. a person you like is not free from making mistakes and a person you hate is not the worst human being in the world. dont judge LD for anything other than his one act of violence on that fateful day. i do hope the discussions will not go out of hand and thankfully the moderators are here just for that purpose. thank you moderators. agree. in this matter i do say LM is also at fault. mindgames are not new though and happens all the time. many players have been affected before. are you saying you condone violence in sports? or do you excuse some violence in some sports? i dont. violence in violence. be it punching, or hitting, or shoving violently, or throwing objects at other people. no violence is peanut. not to the the intended person. yeah, coaches acted differently but do we really want badminton to go the way of ice hockey where it is sometimes free for all? we expect something more from the people our children is imitating. agree with you here. but at the very least there should be some time for the coaches and players to interact during breaks for that's what a coach should do. help the player read the game and come up with a better strategy if needed. if the player can do it all by himself, he does not need a coach in the first place.
On Taufik's Punishment Update on Taufik's sanctions/punishment for HK 2006 - Huang tried to find out, as far as he remember, no suspension for Taufik in the end, it was mentioned in news report bf Displinary Board's final decision. Taufik didnt go for one tourney, so ppl assumed Taufik got suspended. Fine - As far as Huang recalls, PBSI or Taufik paid fine, dunno how much or when, since Displinary Board's decision was 23 Sept, match was 31 Aug. Anyway, the official announcement is Taufik didnt get 2,970 ranking pts & USD$2,500 from HK 2006. http://internationalbadminton.org/n...06F-4A60-956E-8D448492E98D}&year=2006&month=9 http://internationalbadminton.org/n...3D3-430D-A3DE-ECCDA848463C}&year=2006&month=9
I did not know which incident you brought up in the first place regarding "i think LCW had faced a shouting LYB before but i dont remember reading that he threw a racket or start a fight with LYB." So I said "LCW facing shouting of LYB if true" it would be different ...If this is something you care to debate with me about, please find the reference and the facts and bring them here, I promise that I will find you the differences. You had given me an example of "zidane and materazzi world cup fiasco". Since I don't really follow and know much about soccer, I will leave you with my last comments. And I'm not interested in debating about other sports, which I don't even play. Again the debate is getting out of the subject of baddy and MSF KO 08 and MSF CO 07. I'm neither in a position nor interested in commenting on all these different and complicate scenarios. Please try not put words in my mouth. What I said was I meant. BCers can read themselves. I made the comments in response to your comments, which was a response to my comments. Now you want to debate me on my latest comments. This will never end, even if we spend the rest of our lives on this debate, which has already gone beyond the initial intent. We will have to agree to disagree on some of the fundamental issues barely touched upon in our exchanges.
Hi, chris@ccc, haven't seen you much in any heated exchanges or hotly contested threads. I assumed you had wonderful time with your baddy games and tried to avoid controversy. Thanks for the expert opinion on the relationships among coaches, players, and court officials during matches. It clarifies some of the confusions. Any more new threads from you soon
