1. Actually I don't know the answer nor what is needed to make a top international badminton player, much less what is needed to make a country a powerhouse in badminton. If I had this ability I wouldn't be talking here! What I think is, if the powerhouses are doing it, there must be some advantages. 2. My thoughts, I do not have any. I don't know much about it and have not thought or lost any sleep on this issue. But when I can't think of other reasons, I think about money... As there is a saying, money is the root of all evil (but I need it, and badly)! I think LYB should be an intelligent person. If he stated the things as he did, he may have other reasons...
I am surprised by some comments saying the WO and match-fixing strategies of CHN team are not against the rule. Well if they are not, why do they bother to lie about it? LD does not say "I will let CJ win this final", he says "my stomach hurts". LYB does not say to Zhou Mi "don't go", he says "go and pretend to play".
there are two types of rule. the type that is written in the rule book. and the type administered by the fans. if they so blatantly violate the second, they will get a huge fan revolt.
Yes... That is why I say shame is powerful. But for it to be effective, the fans have to voice their discontent. And I know Chinese people : they are very sensible about image.
I think players should also get more involved. Sometimes perhaps refusing to play in a final or semis against a player that benefited from fake match or WO. For ex, LCW should not have played against CL. The title then go to the cheater, but he can only take it with shame. Other countries association should also protest. This lack of reaction shows how badminton is not well organized. For ex, in the China Masters two weeks ago, all the umpires were Chinese. This is contrary to ethic and politeness. Players should have protested, and Associations as well.
Maybe BWF should strictly impose a penalty for those who walkover against with team mate (like China vs China player). Penalty by points and/or monetary and/or recovery period atleast 1 month. And/or maybe in the case of LD vs CL in Japan Open, CL must still play with the opponent that LD beat in semi-finals so that... 1.) to be fair with LCW (I guess one of the reason LCW lost because CL was able to rest well). 2.) to be fair with the fans especially those who paid to watch the tournament. 3.) team / players will think twice to walkover for whatever reason. I dont think there will be a "Scam Walkover" of player against other team. Unless for serious match fixing... atleast team mate vs team mate walkover will be lessen.
The problem with this solution is that players that WO pretend to be sick. It is difficult to fine them. If the fine is automatic, they will show for the match, but won't play seriously.
Im not sure at this stage if BWF cares about it. We may need to hear from BWF whats the problem and their opinion. Lets put aside moral judgement, in the world we live in its too complex to generalised. For LYB's mind he has stay loyal to his value, even feel proud about it. Maybe as for you its a clear cut crime. So..... you see each of us may have different standards in regards to "moral". Therefore as long as there is no clearly written regulations and strong implementation, this moral approach is just USELESS. As the OP wrote in his 1st post, they will do it again and again and again and again. Now its up to BWF to set out the standard, if they want to go as low as LYB, then too bad. We may have to study the regulation in regards to BWF board members appointment and replacement.
Unless the players themselves come out & say they were forced to do so, with proof(voice recording, sms message) I was quite surprised with how strict the Lawn Bowling Association is, they can conclude from the way the match played that NZ purposely lost to Thailand to avoid tough draw in following rounds. Then suspend the captain & fine all the players involved. In badminton, how to deduce they purposely lose? Unless very obvious ones like purposely send the shot wide repeatedly, sending shots into net. Another one would be like in team events like Thomas Cup where singles specialist asked to play doubles & vice versa. Or fielding 2nd/3rd stringers for all matches when the main players are not sick/injured
Maybe other countries association still hold high things like: * Respect * Politeness * Friendshipness * Sportmanship * Never say die attitude * Getting the best result possible But you are right, may take such actions of non-CHN associations to take up the case to BWF. Imagine how messy that would be LOL
How do you prove anyone is doing anything purposely even if he plays uncharacteristically poorly. We'd seen it; e.g. in WC final, you can see how Wang Xin made so many mistakes against Wang YH. Did she do this on purpose? In QF, Wang SX lost to forgot who. Did she do this on purpose? And Chen Long lost in the 1st round of the same WC. What about him? Can they lose because they'd a panic attack, a mental problem?
Yup thats fine, we can BOOOOOOOOOO them big time. Record the comedy drama for the generations to come. Set up an independent panel to judge if its a hollywood blockbuster or a documentary. Then I'll prepare the chopping block for the butcher to cut the chicken head.
Yes, that I think is the most effective way. But people must BOO very strongly. I heard in Singapour the public was really upset and showed it. If similar reactions happens again and again, teams and players will think twice before misbehaving.
But I never said we should put any moral judgement here. Someone here did. Within a game, a player is allowed (even appreciated) to use deception, single, double or even triple deception. You can set up, condition your opponent's mind in order to what? deceive again... Using deception in combination of patterns over multiple rallies transcends the limitation of a single rally thinking here. Gamesmanship is in play often by any player from any country - tying shoe laces, wiping sweat, changing shuttles, not allowing opponent to change shuttles etc. In the world of tennis, John McEnroe routinely stalled the game, arguing with line judges, umpires, throwing rackets etc. Is there an ethical issue here? Apparently, the fans enjoyed the drama much. The Tennis association didn't ban him from playing. In the days of 15 points, a strategy of wearing out your opponent is a valid strategy. This is a whole game or even whole match (possibly involving 3 games) thinking. Maybe LYB is a great student/disciple of Sun Tsu "Art of War". CHN badminton under his direction is going to war. Every player is a soldier, and every tournament is a battle that has a purpose setting up to the end goal of winning something big, or maximizing the win for the country. His strategy could be seen as transcending a single match, a single player, or even a single tournament. He (or CBA) has a very long-term view and a very good big picture strategist. As far as LYB is concerned, his main goal is to help CHN win as many titles as he can, doesn't matter with which individual player(s). As long as his team complies with the regulations. I don't see anything else here, unless someone put down some serious evidence he's being bribed, or he's bribing another countries. As far as the fans goes, I'm not sure if he cares a bit (maybe he does, but of secondary concern). The fans should perhaps go after the organization that sells tickets. So, what is the main point here? Is this a moral argument? Or is it a value argument for the fan to get their money back? I'd agree the fans probably should be compensated partly at least. Perhaps BWF can do something there, and maybe the offending countries won't mind.
Those kinds of arguments are too abstract. Of course CHN team knows what they do is against the rules (written or not) ; that is why they lie about it. They are patriot, so for them it is doing a small wrong (cheating) for a greater good (glory of country), but international badminton is a game we all play together and from the point of view of others the greater good (CHN's glory) means little, but the "small wrong" means a lot. So CHN has to understand the rules are not for her convenience and that she needs the other to play the game. When I talk about it with my Chinese friends, they all recognize (no exception) that though they can understand LYB's logic, this kind of behavior is harmful and not nice to look at. So the is the spirit of the rule, there definitively is a moral problem. The question for me is only how to find a workable solution.
Well, the Lawn Bowling Association actually conclude so & say the New Zealand captain purposely miss so Thailand can win. It's up to the association In China Masters, there were BC members who mentioned LD telling CJ where to run/shots to make, dunno if true or not. If true & BWF have the guts like Lawn bowling association, that can be constituted as intentionally lose. As for repeated walkovers/withdrawals, if the player withdraw this week citing injury, then next week all fresh & well, at the very least BWF must question them why. Give them some pressure
The issue isn't about one incident or one player. It's about a pattern of conduct. You know you have a problem when people on this forum are correctly predicting W.O. in the late stages of an event based on the draw. Really the ultimate solution is to severely limit the role of the national institutions. If you want to keep the 'flags' in the game then I think the best way to go is to limit each country to 2 entries per event. Of course you'll hear some wailing from the power house countries about that but, too bad. Brazil doesn't get to field two soccer teams in the world cup or the olympics and Canada doesn't get to field two hockey teams in international competitions either.
But I never said we should put any moral judgement here. Someone here did. Morals are based upon a set of perceived values that are born of generations/centuries of general perceptions of right and wrong actions. In quite some cases, conditioning could also be involved! But overall IMO, there usually is some valid reason/argument for a moral judgement to enter the frame. Within a game, a player is allowed (even appreciated) to use deception... Totally valid point. But deception is not to be confused or allied with tactics calculated at altering the opponent's readiness or physical condition in what is perceived as an unfair manner. Again, perception plays an important role, and you may say this is too subjective, but it is born of a general instinct of what is right/wrong. As you have correctly pointed out, gamesmanship is distinct from sportsmanship. In the world of tennis, John McEnroe routinely stalled the game, arguing with line judges, umpires, throwing rackets etc. Is there an ethical issue here? Apparently, the fans enjoyed the drama much. The Tennis association didn't ban him from playing. Mac the Mouth knew exactly how far he could take it, but you wouldn't catch him dead throwing or tanking matches for his Davis Cup teammates. He was a professional, and competitive to the core. And yet, who would most parents choose as role model for their children: McEnroe or Federer? a strategy of wearing out your opponent is a valid strategy Absolutely. But this has nothing to do with the issue at hand, unless you link it to gamesmanship. And again, there are many rules set out in the BWF handbook to counter gamesmanship and provide powers to the umpire to take action as deemed necessary. The umpires can use their discretion however, and there is always a little subjectivity involved in human decisions. But on the whole, its OK, IMO. Just as most of the tennis umpires allowed Mac his histrionics and hissy-fits. Maybe LYB is a great student/disciple of Sun Tsu "Art of War". Doesn't matter. In the context of the game of badminton, are his actions condonable? Refer to Post #1. The SS and SSP and other tourneys used for obtaining ranking for OG qualification, are individual tournaments regardless of what LYB thinks. He chooses to use them as tools to further his cause, and his methods are ethically very questionable. Actually not just ethically, but if he ever gets caught out by any of his team squealing on him, he (and CBA) could be in very hot water. Of course, the other issue is that the BWF are wimps... and this makes LYB look stronger than he really should be So, what is the main point here? Is this a moral argument? Or is it a value argument for the fan to get their money back? The main point here is to find a way if possible, to close the many loopholes (for want of a quicker word that comes to mind) that LYB is exploiting at present. It is not a moral argument. It is a real concern. The BWF handbooks and laws/rules are not ambiguous to anyone with a decent command over the English language. You can choose either to interpret the book to the letter, or in the spirit. BWF holds custody over a game, where sportsmanship, fairness, competitive spirit, fostering of understanding and harmony through sport are the key values. NOT WAR. Regardless of what LYB or anyone else may prefer to twist it into, this is a game. And to my mind there is one national association that is not playing the game. Tragically, it is the one with the best bunch of players on earth.
