Off topic-Hey.. ...i thought i'm only a detective for the Agency of BadmintonCentral Detectives??.. ..yes, i was giving some tips to Birdwood....And yes, this could be the calm before another "storm" (if there'll be a hearing & outcome with BWF for this 2008 KO incident)..
Thanks for the compliments Meanwhile, chris's pic can be found somewhere in BC....too lazy to dig it up
i hope so. i really like them to pay more attention to the bad line calls rather than mental attack on the players agree. nobody's argument is perfect since we are not there in the first place and really we are not LD and LM and we dont know how they react to the situation that was unfolding. just my opinion, the last call that the umpire did not overturned to LD advantage was not a blatant bad call as the ones that was overturned earlier. and trying to be a fair umpire (as he did wondefully when he overturned the previous obvious bad calls) he had no conviction that the call was bad. according to some the shuttle lands quite close to the lines. but maybe LD having had four calls overturned in his favour was really convince that the call was bad yet again especially it was a crucial point for him and did not take into account that the umpire had been fair before and thus he should have faith in the umpire and concentrate on winning the next point rather than throwing his racket around. now in a normal match, if the umpire upheld the call most players would not argue too much. but this being korea open and it's reputation of being biased to foreign players LD might have reacted strongly. no matter what, i still think his act of throwing the racket was wrong whether he was provoked or not. yes, i am sad for all players who have had to fight against not just their opponents but the bias of the officials too. be it LD or LCW or even TH. i am proud of LCW's manner in the sense that he did not walk out on the match with BCL in CO2007 and he did not throw any tantrum. but i was a bit disappointed when i saw that he seems to have given up and did not play to the best of his ability. but being affected by injustice done to you is human. how you react shows your character. the best case scenario would have been ingoring the bad calls and the obvious bias of the umpire itself and still fight for every point and maybe changing strategy so that the opponent could not gain points by dubious line calls but really that is a tall order indeed. nobody is perfect. if anybody ask me to choose the best reaction to bad line calls, the above would receive my highest vote. followed by LCW's reaction in CO2007, then TH reaction of walking out. What LD did was really unacceptable to me. that is just my opinion. seize fire ok. and i fully agree that the line judging system should be fixed and fixed immediately before all this get out of hand for the sake of badminton. it is an agency after all. there must be senior detectives and junior detectives. by the way, where do i sign up for training? hopefully no more storm. hopefully we could just discuss it in a calm manner. what am i saying? of course there will be a storm. maybe even tornado and a dash of volcanic eruption. hehehehehe
According to the comments of the majority of BCers, who saw the disputed call, the shuttlecock was out. Of course, ppl can always argue it's not convincing enough to be sure, and I am not surprised there were some ppl who thought it's in To your point that umpire had already corrected 4 bad calls and "been fair before", so LD "should have faith in the umpire and concentrate on winning the next point", I don't buy it. (1) the last disputed call if it was bad, it should be corrected no matter how many bad line calls the umpire corrected earlier. (2) the call was bad to the majority BCers who saw it and it must be even more clear to LD. (3) the umpire might not be in a position to tell whether it's good or bad since it landed on the other side of the court or he was not totally convinced. (4) having faith in an umpire who did not see or could not tell the call was bad? I'm not sure that would have done LD any good at the time, it was the end of the match, not in the beginning or the middle part pf the match of MSF KO 08.
Maybe... ...just maybe, LinDan expected the last bad line call to be over-ruled by the Umpire, just like he did for the earlier bad line calls..But when the Umpire upheld the call, LinDan couldn't believe it...
I did not finish the list last time because I was short of fingers. Let me see if I got enough of them this time for our ctjcad's BC job titles librarian detective welcome committee dispute mediator cheerleader spokesman credit rating (of other BCers) debate team auditor special investigator for complaints lodged against BC Admin ... Sorry, more fingers please
The important thing is the last disputed call was clearly bad, most of ppl could see that. Why the umpire did not correct the call? I just looked again at the video clip: the umpire didn't see where the shuttlecock landed because his view was blocked by LD. In that case, did he have the responsibility to tell LD that he could not see it instead of just pretending the call was good? or have LD and LHI replay the point at 21-21 See for yourself: http://s.sohu.com/20080128/n254932425.shtml
Post mortem.... Shuttle was IN as said by linesman. But later overrule by umpire. Shuttle was OUT as said by linesman. But later overrule by umpire. This happen 4 times. Let say if all linesman job was professionally carried out, the games may ends peacefully. So, the fire starter is the linesman. Conclusion: There are any opinion here and there. No right and wrong. If player mis-behave, they given yellow or red card. Why linesman never get a yellow or red card??? He should be barred from linesman job for some times!!!
i mean that LD should know that the umpire would have overturned the call if he had seen the shuttle go out himself. i saw the video, the shuttle was out. and other players have had to deal with bad line calls before and had to play on and concentrate on the next point. LD should have done the same. he should not have expected the umpire to change the call merely on his account that the shuttle was out. yes, bad calls should be corrected no matter how many times it happens. i agree with that, but could you agree that the umpire could not have overturned a bad call that he could not see? he could not simply do it because LD said it was out. that would be unfair of him (to LHI) now wouldn't it? yes the call was bad. yes a lot of BCers can see it. and in fact even the umipre himself can see it after he saw a replay of it on tv later. but in that moment of time when he made his judgement, i would say he did the right thing. not saying the shuttle is in but the umpire did the best he could based on the rules of badminton. like football and many other sports, bad decisions by referee happens, but most of them are honest mistakes and not geared to be unfair to any party. LD could have just accepted that like many players from many types of sports that needed a referee when it comes to bad judgement and turn that into a positive thing by being more focused to win the next point. which i think he did. but alas he made two errors that cost him the match. can you blame the umpire in this case? i agree that that was probably what happened. based on the umpire's conduct previously, i believe he would have overturned the call if he had a strong conviction that it was out. this is a sport with rules and referee. bad calls are bound to happen sometimes. sometimes it is intentional and other times it is an honest mistake. be it in the beginning or the middle or the end, bad calls will effect the players. how they react to it differs. some gave up, some fight back, some throw tantrum, some resort to fighting, some kept their focus and played to win. LD is not the first player to face the injustice of the judgings on the sports arena and he will not be the last. others have worked equally hard for their wins and equally disappointed by their loss. and others have been penalize for their bad conducts no matter whether they were provoked or not. why should LD be given a leeway? zidane was a champion too but when he headbutted materazzi he was penalized (even though that was his last match and it really did not harm his career, the fact that he was penalized shows that nobody in FIFA condoned what he did and to show that youngsters should not follow his example). and his reputation suffered too. and he apologized for his misconduct. that is being a big man. being a sportsman. nobody is asking LD or LM to be perfect. we are asking for them to own up to their misconduct and apologize.
Since I'm not familiar with baddy rules, I don't understand some of the things you said. If the umpire in MSF KO 08 did not see the final disputed shot landed out: (1) he would not overrule the call (was called in)? (2) he did not even need to disclose that fact to anyone, including LD that he could not see it because LD was in between him and the shot? (3) he did not need to let them replay the shot? If all of the above were correct, MSF KO 08 linesmen could have made the bad call on purpose and many more of those calls since the umpire simply could not see and to overrule the bad line calls from the linesmen. Then what's point for playing if the bad calls can not be corrected? or at least for the point to be replayed? Just find a bunch of biased linesmen to fix the match If things like that, I would suggest Chn players do not go to KO SS in the future
Hmm...what happened to the "middle-ground agreement"??.. ...okay, i never wanted to get involved, but here are my replies since you've asked (i hope this is not a way of Birdwood trying to test my "debating" skills)..hmm *Yes, i saw that video link: 1. Yes, i concur, the last disputed line call was bad, as i saw that shot. However, i wouldn't call it "clearly bad" as it was a close call and only lucky viewers like us can see that from that vantage point. 2. As to why the umpire didn't correct the call? Well, my answer is, why should he change or correct the call? In other words, he simply made the decision on what he saw. Whether his view was blocked by LinDan's legs or body, that i'm not certain. Of course, if the Umpire were to have a small monitor by his chair and watched where the shuttle landed, he probably would've over-ruled the call. Unfortunately, he didn't and he had to make a decision based on what he judged was correct, using his pair of eyes (just as he did in the previous over-ruled calls). 3. Did he have the responsibility to tell LD that he couldn't see it instead of just pretending the call was good? Well, my opinion is he probably should. However, i don't think he pretended the call was good. Because no matter what type of reasons the Umpire would give to LD, he still would need to make a decision, whether it's "In" or "Out". And that is his main responsibility at that moment. Not so much to explain to LD that he couldn't see where the shuttle landed. If he couldn't see it, should the Umpire keep quiet and not give a call?? Thus he made the call, based on where he "believed" the shuttle landed (just as he did in the previous over-ruled calls). 4. Call a "Let" and have LD or LHI replay the points? Hmm, sure. (I believe i suggested that idea in one of the threads in the 2008 KO sub-forum). But, it was just a suggestion, as i'm not too sure as to how the rules say/apply in this situation; and if they even exist.
check the rules then, i think the linesperson is there to support the umpire because he couldn't possibly see all landings of the shuttle. he is after all stationary in one spot. that is the whole purpose of the linespersons. to help him judge. he could overturned line calls are are obviously wrong if he himself witness the landing of the shuttle and this usual involves shuttle landing near him or shuttle that are not obstructed and obviously lands in or out. meaning not one or two inches but way way off the line. for those too close to call, he would have to rely on the linesperson. i still believe the umpire did a commendable job. the linesperson should have been replaced immediately once the fact that he/she was biased became obvious. but in that circumstances we cannot ask the umpire to give preferential treatment to LD by explaining to him and apologize to him and such. did he explain to LHI when he overuled the other bad calls? i think you should check out the rules birdwood. just so you could be sure that LD was not unfairly treated by the umpire. he did what was in his power and his responsibility.
Btw, everybody, while we are busy debating here, Ah Boy-Sin have uploaded all the KO finals matches to torrents. Zamnabe is re-uploading MS FInals to Mediafire over at Baddy Vid D/load Thread. So,those who want to count how many bad line calls, when it happened & all the juicy details, the full vid are available.
My input will be being a professional player, he/she need to expects a bad call when you play the locals. As simple as that, keep cool and loose gracefully (still we are human and can fume!). Make a formal complain. There are many eyes out there watching and am sure the official will get a bashing. "Save the player, save the world". Whack the officials. hehe.
ctjcad, you're losing your debating spirit over too many responsibilities at BC. I can see more teeth this time, but were they here because of the bait or you wore a different hat last night. "Never say never", maybe one day you'll be back with those sharp tongue of yours again, which were seen only not too long ago It's clear bad, even our neutral spokesperson could see it. LD and the lineswomen would be able to see it even clearer. Where his judgment came from? He could not even see it. With LD moving fast, he wouldn't have been able to catch the shot. When LD turned and walked to him, he turned his head to the other side and announced the score, as the call had been "good". If he had put more consideration to LD's plea or explained that he did not see the shot, the whole episode could have been avoided. I thought umpire's apathy also contributed to the LD's outrage. The umpire probably was thinking: I gave you enough breaks already. As for the previous bad calls, he corrected them because he actually could see where the shots landed. There were huge difference there, not just as ... This was another big mistake on the umpire part, who failed to realize the importance of the point to give a "Let" in such a crucial junction. LD won the next two points, a "Let" might have given LD the MS title in KO 08. LD himself did not think he loss the match and he should have been the champion (if you can read Chinese): http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51850
Everyone has different personality, not all as nice as you. Even if they're, the reactions might be different from what they would normally do. So no way I can be sure anyone wouldn't do something as LD did. LCW in MSF CO 07 did not have LYB bothering, jumping out the chair, and cursing him. Walking-out was not an option, since TH got purnished from walking out MSQF HO 06. The bad line calls were exceptionally high in MSF KO 08, with some of which way off the line. All of them happened on the side of the court away from the umpire. One linesmen did two of those bad calls, which let me think the calls might have been done on purpose since umpire usually could not see the other side very well. Fortunately, the umpire saw one clearly, caught glimpse of the other two he corrected, but was not in a position to see the last one. Sure, the umpire should not change the call based just on LD's account, but the number and the pattern of biased calls did speak by themselves that something suspicious was going on, and warranted further investigation by the umpire, rather than simply dismissing LD's plea. He could have given a "Let" for LD and LHI to replay the point. Why didn't he? It's a failure on the umpire's part. It did not appear that way. Under the circumstances, many other factors contributed to LD's behavior. The confrontation did not occur just by LD himself. The linesmen did not follow the rules, the umpire did not enforce the rules, LM broke the rules, and why players should be expected to follow the rules? If the rules of the game changes, then the game changes. We had a punch of biased linesmen fixing the match if not for country's pride. Court and field officials, referees, judges, umpires, etc. involved in gambling have happened in sports before and could happen anywhere. We were not talking about preferential treatment to LD. Recognizing the facts that LD was badly mis-treated in MSF KO 08 by other parties and injustice was done to him too. Why the umpire needed to explain to LHI since LHI did not suffer the same biased calls. I don't think the umpire did everything in his power and his responsibility. There were many things mentioned before that he could have done, such as replacing the linesmen, considering LD's plea more carefully and explaining to him or giving a "Let" to the point. After said all of the above, I would say that what LD did in MSF KO 08 was wrong and unacceptable to baddy as a sports. Appropriate actions should be taken against him. But taking into consideration of other contributing factors, I would also fix the blames on other parties as well, including the linesmen, LM, and the umpire. Short of that, justice will not be served. btw, LM did not see where the shuttlecock landed on the last bad call, but that did not prevent him from jumping out off his chair, moving, shouting, and interfering. If anyone wants to see what and why he did, you can read at: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51838
LOL, All the hot discussions are over at KO 2008 threads. There's a new vid out showing the force of LD's throw. And apparently Sina.com has got an interview with the umpire & sone has translated. And Kwun has started a poll. Let's see what punishment LD & LM get. For player, anything less than Taufik's punishment- loss of WR pts, loss of prize $$ for that tourney, fine, Suspension of 1 SS.... will have protest from Taufik et al.
