You mean since this morning? No, I don't have him on speed dial By the way, do you have a name for this shot? You're the one that assert's it's there... Normally that would place the onus on you to find it
That's why I said it's not an easy shot to play. It takes lots of good judgement, and control on the player's part. This is a finesse shot essentially, not your basic shots.
Now that skepticism grows on this board, I've only two choices - let it die, or vindicate myself. Well, I spent some effort just now looking at two random Doubles games. In games situations, the height and effect vary. I hope you could bear with me, and go through all that I collected below, and keep an open mind to look for more. Compare the shots played below with your own understand of the kind of pushes you learned/played. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ube1IQMdaM 16:50 - slow motion. The Danish on the right made contact with the bird pretty low already. He didn't play a net shot, not a drive, and not a lift. That could be the mid-court shot I've been referring to. If this shot were a bad idea at this level, I suppose we're saying he made a mistake and played a bad shot. Note that this shot could have been played to the left side, where the court was largely empty - if his grip had allowed such flexibility (which didn't appear to be so given his forehand grip). Another one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUZ04q9H8rU 4:07, from Malaysia team on right side of the screen. That shot doesn't appear to go flat and definitely not downward. Another one @ 7:10, when the Malaysia played an upward push, and none of his opponents was fast/close enough to hit a hard shot. 10:27, another one. I think this last one is the most obvious one. Have a closer look at Koo's racket height relative to the net top, where the shuttle will land if not intercepted, and where (what height) the Indonesian took it, and what he could do (or couldn't do) with it.
Don't have a good name for it. You may have to describe it to your coach. But I think I vaguely recall the coaches here referring it as mid-court push, certainly different than the one I learned long time ago. Completely understood where you came from. That's why I spent the time to do the thing I tried to avoid - to spend the time looking it up. But it appears to be not that hard to find, after all. You may need to watch carefully, and ask more - "Wait, what just happened? Was it a lift, or a push, going upward, flat (like parallel to the floor, more or less), or downward?" Seek, and you shall find. Enjoy...
In last video, at 13:18 Koo attempted another one, except this time, he wasn't so successful - intercepted by the front opponent. But when you watch this short clip, pause, and think. What's Koo's intent? He could have played net, or lift, but the shot he chose wasn't any of that. Did he make a mistake and play a bad shot?
One more, with last video (Malaysia vs. Indonesia). at 18:39, Tan played one possibly much better illustration of such push - it passed the front player who stood too close to the net. Shot went up, but probably not as high as you might imagine. Back player couldn't do anything too aggressive about it.
Thanks for posting the links. It seems to me that the upwards trajectory isn't key in avoiding the front player in most of these examples. Consider if the shot player had played a similar line from a little higher and a little flatter - I don't think the front player would get to the shot in this case either. So from my perspective the players know how fast they have to play the shot and at what sideways angle to avoid the front player. This makes up/down angle irrelevant. I think this is qualitatively different to knowingly playing a shot on a line that will be intercepted unless it is played higher. I agree that the last example is the best one (the one at 7:10 I would say is the least good). I think it's the only one where the height might have played a role in the shot's safety. But it does show that the rear player was able to play an attacking shot from it. Imo MAS probably playing a shot they wouldn't have done if IND players in reverse position (Kido not being great at the net for a pro). So the first three shots cited I'd say were good, but that they don't demonstrate the shot you described where height was a key component in avoiding the net palyer - here it is incidental. Line and speed is what avoids the net player in these shots. The last shot that probably does show the shot I believe you describe, I think is a bad shot and as a result setiwan had a good chance to start aggressive play from mid court. edit:this just in response to first post with YT links
Yes its instinctual for me to move forward when playing a downward or attacking shot, and move back when playing a defensive or upward shot. There are exceptions to this, such as hitting an upward lift to an opponents backhand when nobody is there to cover it. But on these occasions there is a pause after hitting the shot where I judge that it is a good shot and can rush to take the net. For an upward push like this, it happens very quickly and is unclear whether the net player can get it, so I resort to instinct that is to move backwards.
very nice findings raymond thank you i wont yell at my partner if he does that now (if only he would not do it when he has the time for 3 kills...:crying
Tks raymond for posting some video examples... although those were more of front court pushes taken just below the tape. Not what OP had in mind originally imo. In any case, in those examples, these are neutral to attacking shots that are intentionally played to the space between the two opponent players... using pace, height, and trajectory to pass the front player so that it ends up behind him but still in front of the rear player. As such, they require a very good touch, finesse, and judgement of the reach, limits and abilities of the front player. Can be risky but better than a lift, and more exciting to watch than a simple block to the net.
[MENTION=57143]visor[/MENTION]. Thanks for the confirmation. I do realize (a few post back) those were not what OP was asking And I do realize the "demonstrated" shots "require a very good touch, finesse, and judgement of the reach, limits and abilities of the front player", as I repeatedly mentioned in my previous posts. Yes, it can be very risky, and yes, when applicable, they're better than a lift.
I'm pretty sure I can find a more representative video if I spend more time. I'd say that upward trajectory (i.e. height) is very important even if you play from the side,and esp. when the front player is just underneath your shot. Too flat, and it risks being intercepted. Too high, and it risks giving too much time for the rear player.
Raymond: Well done for finding the examples of push shots! They can be buggers to find as they are not always very memorable. I do not think that hitting upwards is necessarily relevant - except that its necessary to do so when you take the shuttle late! As long as it goes past the front player, and doesn't sit up too much (i.e. taken around net height - but not above), then its a good shot. Many view it as a "nothing shot" - they are wrong May I suggest, to all those looking for a good example of the shot that one should play against a fast drop shot, that this video by Peter Rasmussen is the best one to look at. He calls it the neutral net shot, I call it a push, but never mind. I think neutral net shot is a good word for it - the purpose is to give your opponent nothing to work with - the same reason he hit his fast drop against you! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7W90mOwE7M Observe how, during every demosntration, Rasmussen takes the shuttle from a long way below net height. He hits the shuttle softly, not high above the net, not tight to the net. Yes, he could hit it slightly harder and have it land in the midcourt if he chose. To the OP: the shuttle is slow, but there is NO WAY an opponent could kill this - they may be able to drive it back flatish, or indeed play the same shot back to you. If you are not able to play this shot (and look - he takes it up to 2 feet below the height of the net), or a similar shot like raymond showed, then you are not taking the shuttle early enough - you are moving your feet too slow. From a purely theoretical point of view - there is no way your opponent can play a shot fast and steep from the back of the court - it is either steep but slower, giving you time to get forwards to take it early, or it is faster and not so steep, which means when it arrives it won't have dropped too low to play the shot. Either way, if you use your feet properly, and reach forwards (its only 1 step after all), you should be able to take any fast drop and play this neutral net shot in reply (or cross drive, or cross net, or straight drive or.... you get the point, loads of options!). Good luck all!
Hi Matt, thanks for your confirmation of this not so common shot. I now feel I'm completely vindicated!! I think you may be the 2nd person on this thread that mentioned "height" or "hitting up" is not relevant, and am wondering if we're talking about the same thing. I don't mean to say the shot needs to be "very high", or must be of certain height at all time. Rather, I'm talking about the height control for the situation, given your 2 opponents skills, habits and positions.
Raymond, these half lifts, half pushes are becoming a part of MD double games. Even junior level MD competitive teams are using them. I am surprised that you need to prove it.... I guess one has to encounter more Indonesian/Malaysian players.... GC or MF frequently commented on using the mid-court areas. Well, learning to hit these shots is not easy - knowing when to use it is just as important. Thank you for biting your tongue.... Got to give it to you.
In all honesty, I mentioned height because others had. For all these shots I am not going to be focused in any way on the height of the shuttle - I want to play a push, and it needs to get past the front player, and it needs to get to that gap at the sides as quickly as I can make it do so! Im afraid my understanding of badminton is relatively simplistic - a push is a push as long as it lands in about the right place at about the right speed, travelling relatively flat. The OP wants to counter fast drop shots without using a lift - I recommend a push These shots can be tricky to judge, and it takes some nerve to play them if you know your opponent is a skillful net player. But remember - if they can get to this shot easily, then it means they are leaving gaps elsewhere on the court! And thats honestly all I care in this matter! As I said - quite a simplistic view of the world, but badminton is an extraordinarily simple game that can be massively over complicated!
Thank god I'm not the only one! I've never understood why some people (I'm looking at you, Badminton England) mangle these shot names. A push is a flattish shot into the midcourt. Pushes are hit "medium soft". You can play a push as a serve return. You can play a push as smash defence. You can play a push from the net. You can play a push from the midcourt. It's still a push. And it's very useful, especially when directed straight down the tramlines in doubles. Often pushes have to travel upwards a bit, because you were contacting the shuttle below net height (as when replying to a fast drop). It's still a push. In doubles the main tactical role of the push is to "find the gap" between the front and back attackers. This pretty much defines the shot. I think badminton is an extraordinarily complicated game that can be massively simplified. Knowing how (and when) to simplify it is part of being a good teacher.
