This was along time ago when Denmark went to China to test out the mysterious Chinese players they called "The Thing" and gang. China was then banned by the then IBF. These early "Chinese" players were the pioneers of today's Chinese dominance in the game. They were in fact Indonesian Chinese who fled Indonesia because of the unrest there. Almost all the Chinese singles lineup could beat Sven Pri, and beat him very badly. This friend of mine was a team mate of "The Thing". He later became a good friend of Sven Pri who unfortunately took his own life. My friend told me the reason why they could beat the Danes so easily was that the Chinese were hardcore professionals, even at that time, whilst the Danes were amateurs who had other jobs.
If at all, that has to be Tang Xianhu (Well, noticed taneepak's post just now ) It's all in the fingers. You are my man, sifu
This ex-China player friend is also a good friend of Malaysia's Ng Boon Bee, whom he admired very much. Malaysia also sent their team to China in great secrecy. Like the Danes they were thrashed by the Chinese. Another Malaysian friend, Lim Say Hup, a one-time All England mens doubles winner with Teh Kew San, blamed their humiliating loss to the Chinese on the type of shuttlecocks used by the Chinese (Aeroplane). I think Malaysians tend to find too many excuses for their losses.
I like your way of telling stories. I believe it was China who first paid a visit to Denmark back in 1966, with Tang Xinfu leading the squad. At that time China were a bunch of unknown players and Denmark did not take them seriously. At that time Denmark had the great Erland Kops, regarded the best player if I am not mistaken.
Earland Kops was also badly beaten. There is some reference to this one-sided scores in Oon Choong Teik's memoires somewhere in this forum.
Sorry guys, thought I started it up, may I suggest that we stick to the subject: Wrist. In the other thread I refer to there is a link for an article on some research in the field, the conclusion was that Wrist is for no good! So why do you keep believing in it? And also what about the grip...?
We believe in the wrist because all top Asian players use their wrist! As I have said earlier, the source of all power must come from leverage. In badminton, leverage comes from the backswing, which can be a large one or a small one like when playing a net shot. Wrist snap, which is the motion of the wrist from cocking to uncocking and then impact, can have variable speed and variable directional and angle changes, by itself has very limited power. Pronation by itself has even less power. Just raise your playing arm up and then simply pronate your forearm but without using any swing of the arm, how are you going to hit a shot when the only motion is like screwing a screw-driver anti-clockwise? At least a wrist snap, without any arm swing, will be able to hit the shuttle albeit with little power. Pronation by itself is merely screwing the air. Merely focusing on pronation of the forearm can be misleading because in the end you will find players play, in former world singls champion Han Jian's words, "without wristwork, your game would become plain and predictable. You would not be able to vary the pace and angle of your shots or change them at the last instant. Sometimes, when you are under heavy pressure, certain shots can only be saved if you have wristwork because you neither have the time nor space to swing your arm". BTW, if you use the wrist snap properly, which roughly corresponds to the cycle from flexion of the forearm/cocking of the wrist to start of straightening of the forearm/uncocking of the wrist to impact, the arm will automatically go into pronation mode. Herein lies the difference. In Asia, it is the wrist that "controls" direction, change of pace, angle, and timing, and at the same time the straightening of the arm automatically pronates, otherwise you will end up cutting the shuttle racquet edgewise.
maybe wrist and forearm pro/supination play together: Hold like forehand overhead stroke with raket, always turn forearm a little bit back (supination) for forehand overhead preparation. then perform the turning of forearm (here: pronation) in 3 different stroke variations: first): wrist bent to palm side (wrist cocked like end of forehand shot) from beginning: little leverage, small slow stroke second): wrist neutral (not cocked or uncocked) third): wrist bent to back of hand side (wrist uncocked): from my experience biggest leverage and fast stroke in ("real", means proximal) wrist joint: only 2 kind of movement possible: bent/extend put thumb side near forearm (radialduktion)/ put small finger side to forearm (ulnarduktion) not: rotation of hand when forearm is stionary so i conclude: in preparation for forehand overhead strokes you also need radialduktion ?? (for make use of maximal big way for power before shot?)
You cannot play shots with a locked wrist. Almost all badminton shots have a backswing for the required leverage. At the end of the backswing and as you start the forward swing, you cock your wrist (wrist now at about right angle to forearm) and your elbow is bent (flexion). As your foreward swing goes foreward, the wrist is then uncocked as you straighten your forearm. At the start of the foreward swing your racquet will touch the small of your back edgewise. Notice that the straightening of the arm has very important motions: 1. The racquet edge from a knife-like direction is turned inwards to be square to the net when you start the backswing and move foreward for shuttle impact. Westerners call this turning of the wrist pronation. 2. The cycle of forearm flexion to extension corresponds to the cocking and uncocking of the wrist. 3. When the wrist is cocked there is an angle, somewhere near 45% between the wrist/racquet and the forearm. When the wrist is uncocked and at shuttle impact, the wrist/racquet and forearm becomes one long sword. 4. The wrist has moved from an angle to a locked staright line-this is called wrist snap. 5. This movement of the wrist is controllable by the player. You can vary the timing. Ever heard about holding your shots? It can also vary its angle. It can also change directions. It can increase the power of your smash because an increase in wrist speed is more devastating than an increase in arm speed. Even in tennis, can you see the difference between Nadal's handspeed (closer to the wrist) than Federal's (closer to the shoulder/arm)? In a nutshell, wristwork has deception possibilities and power.
Oh dear. Another thread arguing about wrist vs. arm. As usual, advocates of the wrist-is-everything theory fail to distinguish between power generation and power transfer. The wrist clearly has an important role to play in badminton, but anyone believing it is the primary source of power needs their head examined. Arm/shoulder muscles: important in generating power. Wrist: important in allowing efficient transfer of power.
Yes, radial and ulnar deviation occur at the wrist joint to control the moment arm of the racquet. When pronation occurs at the forearm, the wrist needs to be radially deviated (i.e cocked back) to transfer this rotational power into the racquet. Later in the stroke, some ulnar deviation might occur to maximize reach. I think it's silly for people to make a big deal calling it a "pronation/supination shot" vs a "wrist shot". For one thing, if the elbow is the point of reference then pronation and supination cause rotation of the wrist relative to the elbow. Add in other wrist actions, particularly the lateral deviations, and you have a complex movement occuring at the wrist. For simplicity, we call this "wrist action" and it's pretty easy for people to understand. It makes me wonder why no one ever tries to break down movement at the other joints - the shoulder for example. You've got internal rotation, downward rotation and overhead abduction going on there, yet most people just call it shoulder action.
Somewhere in the "Badminton Tournament sharing video" forum you can find 3 dvds of "badminton clinic" by Zhao Jianhua, a former world singles champion and one of the all time greats, deceptive and exciting. Just look at the way he uses his wrist.
Nope. Forearm rotations are an efficient means to accelerate the racket, especially on power shots. Pronation is used for power on FH shots while supination is used for power on BH shots.
Well put, Gollum. I pretty much agree with this. I'd add, like I had mentioned previously, that the fingers also have an important role for many shots. Quite often, the wrist action follows what is initiated by the fingers. On some shots, where very little forearm rotation is employed, the finger action will often get the racket moving more effectively than wrist action. For instance, the basic (not brushed) net kill will often use very little forearm rotation. The wrist can be cocked or set to position the racket. However to get the racket moving forward, finger action is employed -- this will result in wrist action. Perhaps the term, wrist snap, is used differently in HK than is used in North America, the UK and other English speaking countries. The phrase, wrist snap, is rather vague & misleading -- it does not really have an exact meaning when used to denote wrist actions in badminton & many other sports. However, it connotations, or what it implies is what makes it an unsuitable terminology. Perhaps "wrist action" is a more suitable phrase than "wrist snap". Wrist snap implies that the wrist is used as a primary power generator. For many shots, it also suggest that the wrist ends up in an exaggerated flexed position in order to produce a powerful shot. Quite often, but not always, the wrist has more of a passive role in the power (kinetic) chain -- it is used to transfer power rather than initiate it. This is not to say that the wrist does not play an important role in most badminton shots. The wrist actions that you speak of in several of your posts are very real -- they play an important role in deception as well as a conduit for transferring power. However, to characterize these actions as wrist snap is what I suggested (in post #5) as misleading. Note that the concept of wrist snap is not new. This terminology has been used in badminton and many other sports for more than half a century. It has been used for tennis serves (and overheads), baseball swings, and golf swings to name a few. However, this terminology has lead many beginners, intermediates, and even some advanced athletes astray. I have seen many tennis players finish their service motions with an extreme wrist flexion because they were told to snap the wrist. Fortunately, many elite athletes develop proper swings in spite of coaches pushing the idea of wrist snap. In badminton, as well as these other sports, the idea of wrist snap has come under fire as experts in biomechanics have attempted to shed light on the way the wrist is really used.
Agreed, and this is an important point. I think the term "wrist snap" is actually quite good. The problem occurs when coaches, emphasising wrist snap, pass on a misleading idea of technique to their players. Coaches often become obsessed with one part of a technique; consequently, they paint a distorted picture of its overall role. In extreme cases, coaches will say things like: "Your smash speed has nothing to do with the arm. It's all in the wrist." This kind of statement, though well-intentioned, is grossly misleading.
I'm baffled yet again. Are we playing the "contrary game" or perhaps "devil's advocate"? I ask because I recall several posts in the not too distant past where you objected to this terminology. More than once you referred to the phrase, "wrist snap", as being vague (and pernicious). The problem with this terminology is that it tends to lead students astray -- it often elicits an incorrect response. Like badminton, "wrist snap" has been used in tennis by many coaches in the past when talking about serves and overhead smashes. Altho' it is still used by some tennis coaches, many modern coaches avoid using the term very much, if at all. For most of my tennis students, I never utter the phrase. However, for a small percentage of students, I do use the term -- in order to elicit a desired response from these students -- sometimes an incorrect or flawed instruction is needed to produce the desired results from some students that are not quite getting the correct action. If you ask most tennis players or badminton players what is/are primary the difference(s) between the 2 sports, they will invariably say that badminton is very "wristy" or relies on "wrist snap" to execute shots. They sometimes will say that tennis employs a locked wrist. (While the wrist remains firm for part of the groundstroke swing, it does not stay locked). Note that overhead strokes in tennis and badminton use the forearm and wrist in very similar fashions. Yet, when asked, more people will be familiar with the term "wrist snap" that with the concept of "pronation". Check out the following posts. I would agree 100% with your comments in these previous posts: badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=362912 badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=366598
hmm, now I am a bit confused, maybe my english is not good enough (sorry) , there is cocked and uncocked? there is leverage? whip/snap and action? Do we talk about the same thing? As I have understood, looking at the link Volcom posted, there is nothing of the above mentioned words only rotation of the forearm, and for me the wrist is locked to the forearm, with a specific angle/position between hand and forearm. The question is what is the optimal angle/position for transferring power...?
