BadmintonCentral is independent of BWF and National Associations . BadmintonCentral is independent of BWF and National Associations. Currently, BCers are interested to voice our opinions about what is going wrong with Badminton (through BC). We are saying that BWF and some National Associations are doing harm to our sport, therefore we criticise them. As far as I know, BWF and some National Associations are reading our threads. Let them think over about what we have posted. I am not worried about how National experts select their representatives based on biased criteria rather than competence, for I can stop following Badminton when things are not going fair to some participants involved in BWF's tournaments. Regarding CHN-vs-CHN players, I can just follow China's League matches. Why? Because China's League matches are 'true' matches. It's only when CHN players come out to participate in other nations' Open events that China players are involved in 'match-fixing'. Actually, I have spoken out enough in this thread. I shall make no more comments in this thread. .
talking about walkover/withdrawn, have a look of the Dutch open which is on at the moment. yesterday Day 1, 6 walkovers plus 1 injured/withdrawn. today Day 2, 5 walkovers already and we are not even into the evening matches yet! what i'm going to say is if people don't wanted to play for whatever reasons, it's no point to force them. either with sticks or carrots
OG qualifying procedures are slight OT for this thread, but relevant in a round-about way! OG qualifying procedures are set up on some common sense and practicality allied with the objective of fulfilling certain fundamental objectives. One of the primary objectives is to provide every country in the world the opportunity to participate in every event. The "common sense" part applies where there needs to be a cutoff for the number of entries/participants. If you allow all the designated players of an event from every country to participate, the Games will never end! And therefore, they have set up a limit for the number of participants from each country. However, to ensure that the best (and most deserving) players from the best countries get their fair share of representation, the main criteria used is the BWF ranking system. This is also to eventually ensure the highest possible quality of performance in the event (in alignment with Olympic goals.) Every sport has its own benchmark or method for assessing the minimum qualification criteria. In high jumps, it may be a minimum clearance required. In sprints, it may be a minimum time required. In badminton, it may be an international ranking system. But always, the qualificfation criteria is subsumed under the wider objectives/goals of the Games.
by allowing only 16 pairs in doubles certainly tried to achieve the opposite in singles the min requirement for some is as long as you're not born in Asia or Europe, don't even need a world ranking.
I'm not trying to be an apologist for the OG way of doing things. They obviously have their own reasons, restrictions, requirements etc. Also remember, they need to use any particular venue for more than one discipline, over the duration of the Games. Logistics will have a say in defining priorities as well. Which is why I wrote: "But always, the qualificfation criteria is subsumed under the wider objectives/goals of the Games." Look, I understand that it is the OG qualification process that acts as the main spur (allegedly ) for all the walkovers/withdrawals, but I need to stress: it could happen even during non-OG-qualification periods, just because people know (at the moment) there is nothing to stop them from taking advantage of the situation! I keep trying to come back to this. I also stress: it could be anyone, not just China! I also stress: one person's wrongs in the past does not justify another person's wrongs in the present, or a third person's in the future. Eventually, we are all individually accountable for our actions. This is why I feel the main thrust of our energy still needs to be directed at the rule-book; procedures; firewalls; and action/consequence scenarios.
What I was trying to say is, every player should only worry about him/herself, instead of what other's been through. Whether others have an easier draw, harder draw, WO in earlier round (legit or fixing), it's other ppl's problem. The player should do his/her best, regardless whether how "lucky" the opponents are, or how much energy he/she used (or did not used) in previous round. Even if CL and LD had a hard competition in SF, either of them still have good chance to take down LCW in final, based on their performance through out the tournament. I am simply sick and tired to read that each time CHN gain a title, there are immediately negative comments flying out.
1. Fair share? Where's the fair share of XXZ, XXF and CY? Last time I check, OG spirit is NOT common wealth. 2. So, now you say badminton is a team sport now, because of the nation base. I thought your guys keep crying to "individual"... 3. Highest quality??? Are you kidding me? Leave out the definding WC champion and runner up, replace with rank 100 - 200+ players give you the "highest quality"??? 4. Why the game will never end? Just select the top 32 players, whether they carry 32 different flags, or all under one. Therefore, you see all the players will fight to death for him/herself. LD will never have to worry whether "my good performance will hurt my lil bro in CJ and CL" any more...
I was trying to say, if there's no limitation, then LD do not have to worry about CJ, CL, etc to have enough ranking points or not to crack into top 4. Many top players will not have to be left out, simply they are only the "3rd best" or "4th best" of their own team. As long as they are in the top 32, they will have almost equal chance to take a shot at the OG gold.
I am quite aware that BC is a place where people can voice their opinions. We have seen this happening and it's healthy. Your comments confuse me, I am unable to figure out your opinion : "Having only 1 participant per country can still be corrupted (National Associations may select the wrong one due to some wrong decisions)." "I am not worried about how National experts select their representatives based on biased criteria rather than competence, for I can stop following Badminton when things are not going fair to some participants involved in BWF's tournaments." "...China players are involved in 'match-fixing'. ..." Actually, if you have NOT spoken out enough yet, let's continue with the China-bashing...
We can go at this endlessly, and it will not benefit anyone. Please check my post: I said "common sense" not "common wealth." OG tries to give representation to as many countries as possible under the circumstances. OG is devised to be games for nations, and not individuals. This direct dichotomy with the way SS and SSP and GPG etc is designed to work, is the reason for all the problems we are discussing. Check. Badminton is a team sport played by nation against nation when it comes to OG, AG, CWG, TC, SC ad infititum, ad nauseum. We just have to accept that fact and move on from there. I don't like it any more than you do, truly. That is why we need to look for answers elsewhere. Which is what we are trying to do here... Read the entire sentence, and in context of the entire paragraph. The problems arise when people take words and half-sentences out of context and give a different meaning to what is said. I suggest you re-read my post. SLOWLY. COMPLETELY. And then, go through some of the posts made on this thread, in the earlier pages as well. BTW, I assume you mean CJ as "defending WC champion." So, what about WL, then? Should we start banging the table about her right to participate even if she can't bend her knee? You see, what BWF and OG committee are saying is, "You gotta earn the right within the framework of rules established." Nope, can't do that! That is like a SS finals or a WC. OG wants wider representation, reaching out to more diverse audiences, popularising the sports worldwide using the OG, promoting harmony and togetherness and all that. People in Peru don't really care about Lin Dan or Taufik or XXF or Minatsu, but if one of their countrymen were playing badminton at the OG, you can bet your sweet patootie they'd be watching their man on television. If he made it to the round of 32 or whatever, he'd be a national hero. Or heroine. I'm going to borrow a quote from Anna Rice here because I believe it is very relevant. Of course, that depends on your value of the individual, and of human endeavour. “I take the issue of match fixing in our sport very seriously. To me it is as much a form of cheating as is doping. Not only does it cast a light of illegitimacy on our entire sport (and everyone involved with it), it also takes away the right of players to pursue their own destiny.”
I do not have any problem with Anna Rice's comment. I do believe in freedom and individual auto-determination when our decisions. I am also more aware today that pluralism is present in our complex world, where the 'universal' value(s) change with the geographical location. Some societies value individualism while others place group goals at a higher level. How we decide which is higher when we are not in their shoes? As an aside, I grew up in Asia, and I had my first job, my mother told me that I was responsible to support the family. I gave her my salary, saving some pocket money for my badminton expenses. Today I said the same thing to my son and the reply was 'Good try dad!'. :crying: Values... For discussion sake, I know you have mentioned many times the issues with the Olympics qualifications and others as well. Going back to Anna's statement 'the right of players to pursue their own destiny' - by restricting the number of players per country (in tournaments), is already taking away the right of players to pursue their destiny. Aren't we already contradicting ourselves?
You got it all over here. We do not create this thread to make a fuss out of the chinese team take another title. We are just too sick and tired to see the chinese team consistently giving WO and staging fake matches. We are here to voice our discontent and critics. After all we fans PAID to see good sports. We don't pay to see cheatings and manipulations. We want to see good sportmanship.I don't argue on behalf of LCW. LCW case in JO is just an example. It can be any player. In fact you were the one that brought up this example. So your point on every player should play his best irrelevant of others advantage is not relevan t to our discussion at all.In essence, we are talking about stopping the chinese manipulations and right enforcement. If the chinese team do not do these manipulations, this thread would not have been created at the first place.
I agree wholeheartedly with almost everything you have said. From a purist's point of view.... However, this world is a "work in progress." as Buzz Perry may have confided to Butch Haynes. Or the other way around. I also believe there are many culture-based values, and there are also some universal values that are supposed to bond human beings regardless of culture or backgrond, individuals or groups. But all that is I suspect, for another discussion. But I'd just like to point out that in the context of "right to pursue one's destiny" wrt to the OG, where should one propose to draw the line? At the first 500 players in the world? The first 1000? 5000? How fair is fair? Does "understanding and acceptance" extend to accomodating the demands of the top 20 most powerful countries in the world? 25? 40? 50? With so many forces and conditions, restrictions and considerations, the OG organisers have to always work within the constructs of what is possible and plausible, what is controllable and do-able. Such a framework will always displease someone, sometime, and those who want to find fault will always be able to do so, just as those who wish to manipulate it will always do so, as well (sorry, but it needs to be said.) Under the circumstances, the Oly committee has done a great job - they've had over 100 years of bitching and fighting to fine-tune their act! As for our discussion, I would like to point you to post #245, right up there on this very page...
Totally agree with you. Everyone should adopt the CHN strategy. It s unique to badminton. Maybe the sponsor should step in and join the party. Yonex could order the outcome.I was just thinking, not only BAM and PBSI can fix matches. India and Thailand have the numbers to do it too. Let s hope they let their players show their patriotic spirit in the coming CHN Open! Everyone do a CHN in China!
Well, we are paying for the ticket, so it's easy for us to say that we want 5 hrs of die hard match at full strength like no tomrrow. However, as coach or player, s/he has the right to adjust to a different pirority, sometimes, a win, a safe approch, even a WO is for their best interests. Overall, their top pirority is to KEEP THEIR JOB for a long time, but not just for a 1 time hero moment. In any sports, even professional level, say NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, etc... When ever a result is already there (blow out), both coaches bench their stars, and send out all rookes, super bench warmers, etc. Did we pay all the big $$$ for the no-namers? Of course not. However, did any of the stars or teams get sued, or blamed for "not try hard" or "match fixing"??? Many times, we see funny moments during the last week or two of regular season. The teams already secured playoff spots, usually rest all the stars, and send benches to play "easy", to avoid injuries. Therefore, the playoff chasers who happen to play against them get a much easier chance to pile up "W", which means huge advantage over other chasers. Just like this year, 1 of the good reason that TB getes in MLB playoff instead of BOS, is NYY taking extra easy for the last few games against TB... Did NYY get banned? Isn't that more in a way like LD "taking care" his buddies? So, if NYY did not get issues from MLB, not even a warning, why we have to hold LYB, LD, BWF all here for all these years???
Anna Rice got to participate in OG, at the cost of better players like XXF, ZL (08 level). Never have to metion there are tons of relatively no name players from the power houses (not just CHN), can easily beat many ranked players like Anna. And after taking advantage, she has the guts to say "takes away the right of players to pursue their own destiny"??? Well, Anna, you are the "thief", XXF and ZL (and many others we do not even know) are the victims...
Exactly because narrow minded "fans" like this, this sport is in trouble. If all fans all like that, baskeball should never gain this much popularity global wise. In OG 92, US dream team beat all others with a margin of 30+ points. If all the "fans" simply refuse to watch, refuse to accept the fact that "we need to improve ourselves", or simply whinning / blaming the rule books, etc, then we will never see today that so many other nations catching up, and give US a good run for the money in tournaments. So, if the basketball assosications around the world know what to do to IMPROVE THEMSELVES, (but not keep blaming US), why can't our badminton fans try to do the same? We are talking about the sport right now. We should support players from any nation. I respect all representatives, regardless which flag s/he carries.
Wow! What can I say? You are a wizard. Take a look at Loh's post below http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php/72954-Sport-is-not-corruption-free
