Joaquim Fischer's double action serve illegal?

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by visor, Oct 30, 2011.

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Is Joaquim Fischer service illegal?

  1. ILLEGAL

    3 vote(s)
    60.0%
  2. LEGAL

    2 vote(s)
    40.0%
  1. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    They should teach people to serve the way Taufik does. Every time he serves it's like he's giving a demonstration... :D
    "Look, my arm extends downwards."
    "Look, the racquet is pointed downwards."
    "Look, left-hand fingers are well below the last rib."
    "Regardez-vous, both my feet are firmly planted on the mat."
    "Watch now, I'm about to let go of the bird."
    "Damn you, ChongWei! You know I can't move so fast anymore!"
     
  2. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

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    And by that you assume he is also "ready" before said forward movement while we contest he is only ready after said forward movement to position his racket (as apparently every professional opponent so far; of course the OSIM armchair quarterbacks here know better ;)).

    Since there appears to be no footage of this I will have to assume it was the same motion on every serve? And in that case how many years ago was that (since I cant spot it back in 2004)? Secondly: it's singles, hardly comparable since it doesn't have to be nearly as tight ... Ops :) just spotted it and no it is not the same since he already pulled it back once, brings it forward, pulls it back again and serves (and didn't get called).

    In the end you/we/me/she can moan and groan all you want on this board ... I say: "let them play ..." (worry about LYB's legacy getting badminton kicked out of the Olympic program next vote ;))
     
    #62 demolidor, Dec 3, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2011
  3. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

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    No fault:

    [video=youtube;7lWuSaVYBnA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lWuSaVYBnA[/video]

    Fault:

    [video=youtube;X9OrWrYVlhk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9OrWrYVlhk[/video]
     
  4. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

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    Let me squeeze this in: his main serve at the time (2004) was still his forehand serve ... in 2006 still seems the case.
     
    #64 demolidor, Dec 3, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2011
  5. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    Arguing he isnt ready to serve before he does his final of several forward racket movements is quite illogical imop. I can understand why players does not complain, and even see logical resons for service judge to miss it completely or simply choose to disregard the rules as they think the serve isn't a problem. But I think saying that he is not ready to serve until he has made a quick forward movement whan all other players on court are ready for serve is really streching things!!

    To me it is interesting to look at the problem from another angle.. Lets say a service judge DID call the serve citing the mentioned paragraphs in the rules. I do not think JF could argue or point to anyhting in the laws strengthening his case that it is legal, and that is indeed is not 2 forward movements once the service start.

    It will be interesting to follow.. I think BWF really should add 9.x Adressing the shuttle one time when players are ready for serve is allowed and cn be done in a rapid movement.. If they want this serve to be legal.. Of course we can argue that it can be considered legal if no judge calls it.. But personally i think it should be possible to write the rules for service clear enough to make it clear enough without "interpretation"...
     
    #65 twobeer, Dec 3, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2011
  6. Andy05

    Andy05 Regular Member

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    I think the serve should be called a fault, particularly if it taunts the opponent into a motion before he strikes the shuttle.
    In the LD videos PG clearly moves when LD does his dummy serve. That could give LD the advantage especially if it looks like it's going to be a flick then the second motion is a short serve. It looks like in the first video that PG moves back before moving in for the serve, if JFs serve 'preparation' movement induces a movement I think a fault should be called.

    Also if what call would be made if he decided to strike the shuttle on his preparation move? If everyone is expecting the hit on the second move then he gains an advantage. Particularly as this would be legal without any dispute as there would be no double motion.
     
  7. Badmintan

    Badmintan Regular Member

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    There's definitely a delay (hold) in the backswing. I think this can 'fake out' or 'deke' a rushing receiver.

    Imagine if you rush Fischer's service and he flick it behind you? You get mad.
     
  8. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

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    I don't know why you are even still bothering:

    "9.1 In a correct service:
    9.1.1 neither side shall cause undue delay to the delivery of the service once the server and the
    receiver are ready for the service. On completion of the backward movement of server’s
    racket head
    , any delay in the start of the service (Law 9.2), shall be considered to be an
    undue delay;

    Meaning, the normal order of a serve is: (address), pull back (9.1.1), start forward motion (i.e.. 9.2 the "start of the serve") and delivery (9.3) which should be common knowledge (and I more or less mentioned twice already on page 1) but 9.1.1 seems to be conviently left out all the time.

    Case dismissed! :D. And in all your theoretical scenario's you can act receiver not ready ;)

    I think you need a better internet connection ;)
     
    #68 demolidor, Dec 8, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2011
  9. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    Demolidor.. To be specific there isn't actually anything in the rules that states that a player is allowed to adress the shuttle once players are ready for service. I know service judges allows adressing the shuttle.. but a real strict interpretation of the rules would actually prohibit this movement towards the shuttles when players are ready, as that first forward racket-movement would "start the service"..

    To add to this the national team series had a big debate amonst refferres here in Sweden earlier this week on a serve that was faulted for a player in premier team-league here for halting before starting the forward movement in the serve.. referees at the match had different views if the service really should have beem faulted or deemed correct, and no concensus about the rule interpretation was really met.


    /T
     
    #69 twobeer, Dec 8, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2011
  10. |_Footwork_|

    |_Footwork_| Regular Member

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    well, taking the rules literally, the serve is definitely illegal.
    so there's two options:
    a) change the rules accordingly
    b) let the rules unchanged and trust in the referees common sense

    my perosnal opinion is that this service shouldn't be called, as he does this serve consistently and EVERY time, exactly the same way. but unfortunately, the rules say something different.
    interesting case!!
     
  11. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

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    You might as well endlessly debate what constitutes "ready" since it is not defined in the rules as well. According to the rules if you never attempt a return you can always be deemed not ready and have them serve over and over again, since there is nothing in the rules that says you have to hold up your hand or something to indicate you are not ready.
    If you want to leave "ready" to the discretion of the umpire/service judge then clearly they deem a server to be ready only after addressing the shuttle (and/or making a backward movement in their swing).
    Perhaps they should introduce a shotclock in between points of say 10 seconds and add a few timeout opportunities :p.

    I will agree 9.2 does not necesarilly have to come after 9.1.1 (or a so called backward movement) but there is nothing defined in the rules what constitutes "ready" with regards to the server which leaves room for addressing the serve which imo is the server indicating readiness.

    I'd still seriously would love to see an experiment with a shotclock though :D.
     
    #71 demolidor, Dec 13, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2011
  12. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

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    Of course logically taking position would seem a more rational explanation or indication of readiness but a receiver can both take position and not be ready apparently by simply holding up their hand or not looking at the server ... So should server be deemed ready instantly whenever the receiver finally indicates he/she is ready to receive?
     
  13. Badmintan

    Badmintan Regular Member

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  14. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    I think the most logical interpretation of the rules is that the server is reday when he initiates the service movement by retracting the racket. Clearly indicating to the opponent that the serve is about to start. There isn't really anything written about "adressing the shuttle" so I think any adressing has to be done very slow and before indicating readiness to start the service. Any other interpretation is illogical imop, even if I think it may be reasonable not to call JFs service... But interpreting the "ready to serve" as it only applies for the last movement, then you could really argue that JF for example could adress the shuttle 3 times in a very rapid fashion also before the final stroke (starting the service).. Which I think NO servicejudge or opponent would accept!!

    I think most people would interpret the current serving rules (if taken litteraly) as it it allowed to slowy adress the shuttle statically) to clearly indicate when the servier is ready to serve after the "aim") and once players are ready initiate the service by moving back the racket head and then immediately move it forward in one fluid motion..

    The same question really is if the server retracts the racket and then stops.. Can it be said that the service hasnät started yet, and only starts when he starts moving the racket forward (ie allowing a pause between retracting and moving forward)..
     
    #74 twobeer, Dec 13, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2011
  15. Jonc108

    Jonc108 Regular Member

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    Now I learn a new logic:1. If a thief or raper commits the same crime consistently everyday and did not get caught, then his behavior is not illegal; and2. Since he does it consistently everyday, pls don't disturb his natural living style!!!3. Therefore the law must be changed to let this guy live in this way 'naturally'..Good! :D
     
  16. |_Footwork_|

    |_Footwork_| Regular Member

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    well, the case is somewhat different. the goal of the rule is not to distract the opponents and not to allow too much variation in service styles, right?
    JFN does the same movement ALL THE TIME, so it does not irritate opponents in any way. and he doesn't intend to.
    in this case the goal of the rule is fulfilled, even though the rule is broken. so in this case it's definitely an option to THINK about changing the rules. sometimes the rules of sports are changed according to modern needs, e.g. offside in soccer. so changing the rules is not a sacrilege...

    personal opinion: analogies involving hitler, ****, murder and such serious things are commonly seen on the internet, but usually misleading and dumb...
     
  17. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

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    I agree with you that retracting the racket prety much = ready (in fact I thought that was more or less the rule; see post #2 :D). It is pretty clear in the rules that there can be no delay in foreward movement upon completion of the backward action. So if you have "addressed" the shuttle once and you start a backwards motion the serve has to follow? Which doesn't allow room for multiple times addressing anyway ... which is why Lin Dan's 2nd serve was called a fault for double movement and his first was not (he more or less is addressing the shuttle twice in the 2nd serve).
    If you break down JF's serve into portions as in your vid, imo his racket at the start of the first foreward movement is not in position to serve but more on standby so he can quickly bring it in position once the receiver is finally ready (I mean the shuttle is at shaft height). As Cantsmashthis mentioned it is not even a wrist movement and is hardly different from the moving crane action except his racket is not in contact with the shuttle which makes it look much more awkward/unusual. He brings it upwards and forewards with a static arm ...
    It's too bad we are stuck with these useless flash videos nowadays. Pain in the ass to work with and slow down to 3fps like I did for the LD serves.

    I won't deny it at least looks awkward but won't go as far as calling it definitely illegal according to the rules when it is not even specified what constitutes ready which means it is up to the judgment of the service judge and they deem it to be legal. A pause upon completion of the backward movement however is clearly indicated in the rules to be a fault(?) ...
     
    #77 demolidor, Dec 15, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2011
  18. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

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    Let me rewrite that: addressing the shuttle ~= indication for opponent that you are ready to serve (unwritten) and retracting = I'm commencing the sequence. Of course it would be a bit more corteous to leave a little pause in between but this is also not written anywhere and once you have it figured out it is hardly a problem unless you had too much caffeine and will jump at anything :D.
     
    #78 demolidor, Dec 15, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2011
  19. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Now we're just going around in circles. It's becoming (literally) a Fisching expedition, if you understand the context. We've made all the conclusions; we've understood the matter; but because we have really nothing else to do with our valuable time on earth, we're going to chew and shred this topic to an endless series of useless deaths. Along the way we will invite associations with rapists, murderers, genocidal tyrants, cheats, card-sharps, liars, bank robbers, heroes, generals, nuclear scientists, gods, demons, grandmothers, and everybody's neighbour. Sometimes, I wonder why I can't hear myself think!
     
  20. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    Don't give in to your dark passenger :rolleyes:
     

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