Why LCW can't beat LD

Discussion in 'Malaysia Professional Players' started by galaxyduo, Sep 28, 2014.

  1. insaint84

    insaint84 Regular Member

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    Do you think the Asian game match against lcw vs ld was a long tough rallies with high pace , compared with the last meeting they played. So you believed lcw actually ran out of stamina , therefore there was a lot of unforced errors by lcw ... what about the choices of shots selection by lcw in 3rd set ? did you notice the choices of shots are suicidal ? I don't think you need to be a pro to notice the choice of selection. So many 3 quarter shots to LD , towards his overhead ... seeking death . Lcw is considered on of the fitness athletes , I don't think that he is out of stamina. ( why isn't him playing aggressive ? ) first set before 20-16 up, lcw attacked and command the rally a lot , showed good result in return.

    well its just my (3cent opinion) diff ppl diff perception :X
     
  2. bobbee

    bobbee Regular Member

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    Taikor, stamina is definitely not bottomless. Both players of same standard can cause each other to drain off energy. LCW's mistakes are due to energy deficiency thus affecting his focus and confidence. If not he will try play faster than LD. Some of u guys are right that game plan includes planning for full 3 games. Check out previous meetings - LCW just let shuttle drop into court hoping it wld go out. LD got 8 coaches to help analyse. LCW got -12 coaches riding on him. Comparing, LCW is already greater than LD.
     
  3. volcom

    volcom Regular Member

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    If only I had 8 coaches, then i'd be dominating state badminton.
     
  4. Husky

    Husky Regular Member

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    O-kayyyy.. There isn't half a load of rubbish being talked on this thread.

    First off, the assertion Lin Dan is so much superior to LCW that he can score points at will, can give up a set etc... I assume the people saying this stuff don't play the game.

    I play a bit, and even at the level I play, there's a huge difference in going to play at one sports hall or another. These big halls the pros play in are actually dreadful for playing nice, neat accurate badminton - they're big enough for convection, their own air currents! So quite often you get lop-sided scores in sets etc as its much easier playing into the wind as you can give a bit more and not worry about hitting out the back. OK, its 'the same for both players' but the point i'm trying to make is, there are a ton of variables.

    Lin Dan's extra gear. Yes, Lin Dan played some amazing stuff when his back was to the wall in the first game. Credit to him. But what did he do and how did he do it? He worked harder to get behind the shuttle, and moved more explosively, he hit with a greater degree of agression to the lines. In short he worked harder, and increased the risk factor with the shots. In LCW shoes, trying to close out, the mentality has to be, be accurate, be solid, return shuttles if there's a doubt whether they're in or not, and if Lin Dan plays 6 amazing points in a row, then credit to him. Now LD came up with the goods. That, by the way, was a cameo of the 'old' Lin Dan, being the irresistable force. But even Lin Dan can't bring that heat for an entire 3 set match, and he's got wiser. Doing it in little bursts at crucial times is quite a psychological weapon as well as smart strategy. An opponent must feel when he's not doing it, "he's not even trying and I'm struggling". And credit to LCW, he put Lin Dan in a position where he had to gamble everything to stay in the set, and play low percentage badminton.

    Actually, I think Lin Dan's skills are even better now than they were in his early days. He has worked incredibly hard on the shots he didn't have as a young gun, his backhand is now a very versatile weapon. Even among the top pros, the backhand is often a weakness as a rally shot (i think Peter Gade's backhand was the reason he never won everything, he could't get the length on it) Lin Dan can hit backhand crosscourt clears a la Taufik, i think LD's backhand is the best in the business currently. Bear in mind against Chong Wei, their backhands are on the same side. So Lin Dan gets a bit more rest in a match, if Lee chong wei was a lefty, he would have to work harder :) And Lin Dan's round the head smash is the most destructive shot in men's singles of all time *but* it costs energy to use it all the time. So Lin Dan's backhand helps him play this smooth, Rolls-Royce control game, saving his energy up for a flurry at important times.

    The Lin Dan monopoly? I think his matches with Chong Wei are close, there are outliers where Lee Chong Wei gets stuffed (and outliers where LD gets stuffed) in straight games. But I think the usual demographic is that they split the first 2 sets, and then Lin Dan wears down Lee Chong Wei in the decider because his energy conservation is better. The main problem is it is a horrible match up for Lee Chong Wei because he has to dictate, expend energy and attack intelligently for 90 minutes against a guy who is a great problem solver, who gives you no rhythm, who is big but lightening fast, and who reads the game so well he can often save himself running around by anticipating.

    Hardly one sided though, and Lee Chong wei has got agonisingly close on the big occasions. The World Championships in 2012 and 2013 were outstanding battles. In the first, there was 2 points in it, both men played outstanding badminton for 3 games. 2013 was a scrappy match, LCW won the first set 21-16 but it was a long, long gruelling struggle, 40 minutes. The second set, the air conditioning got switched off, and Lee Chong Wei played dreadfully for the first half of the second game and was losing 11-1. I reckon he should have just given the set up, but he fought his way back into the second game, it was a long game, time-wise. Third game kinda seesawed, and LCW looked like he was starting to get away from Lin Dan and had a decent lead but then Lin Dan became more proactive and pegged him back and got ahead. Then LCW cramped, and the match was over, and LCW ended up in hospital. Must have been the grittiest contest I've seen ever, from both guys, neither managed to play their best, but the character of both was incredible. How you can say LD is infinitely better is beyond me...

    Lin Dan is the best of all time. LCW is a close second, if it wasn't for LCW pushing him we would never have seen Lin Dan stretched, and i think Lin Dan would have retired from lack of a truly worthy opponent. These two have defined an era, so have some respect.
     
  5. mindreader

    mindreader Regular Member

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    Well, it's all some mighty fine excuse making, but that still doesn't explain why Lee Chongwei is having an increasingly losing record against Chen Long as well. Let me guess, Lee has a "mental block" against Chen as well?
     
  6. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    That is not hard to explain. Chen Long is a good player and Lee Chong Wei is getting older and with that, harder to maintain the explosiveness.
     
  7. Husky

    Husky Regular Member

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    1-I didn't mention mental block in my last post.

    2-Chen Long's head to head with LCW is exactly even (9-9), and LCW has traditionally done much better in the really big events in head to head matchups. Also CL's much more inconsistent against other players. This WC is the first major in a while where LCW lost to Chen long, usually its the other way round. In previous worlds (2012) Lee Chong Wei won in straight games. If you switched the names around you could say "oh, Chen Long is inferior mentally to LCW", and beat up on Chen Long for not winning the big head to head matchups with LCW, but for some reason nobody does!

    I'm sure somebody with a head for stats can think of another top player with a positive head-to-head record against Chen Long. I think Du Pengyu is even with Chen Long in head-to-head and nobody is making a case for him being the worlds greatest. At least Lee Chong Wei's won a decent amount of head to heads with Lin Dan, whereas Chen Long has only won ... wait... 0. Yes, that's right, 0.

    Chen Long is about to peak. Lee Chong Wei is about to retire. There is no way you can argue Chen Long is a better player on current achievements. Maybe on form.
     
  8. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    CL probably trains and spars with LD day in and day out, so LD being the smart player he is would easily know CL's Achille's heel.
     
  9. Husky

    Husky Regular Member

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    Yep. That helps, it's not that there is so much a glaring weakness anywhere in Chen Long's game, its more that there are absolutely no surprises that can be trained for and prepared in secret. Whereas there's long enough between CL/LCW matches that stuff can be prepared in secret.
     
  10. senior888

    senior888 Regular Member

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    -LD is head and shoulders better than LCW in every aspects of the game and can beat LCW at will.
    -LCW is better than CL if everything is equal but theres a big gap in age.
    -LCW due to yonex commitments, have to play in almost all tournaments to ensure the yonex brand is represented in semis and finals.

    LCW beat both LD and CL in the money ranking, so the dtk wins....
     
  11. mindreader

    mindreader Regular Member

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    That is precisely the point isn't it? Chen Long is difficult to beat for Lee Chongwei, but is not for Lin Dan, at least not yet. That right there points to that gulf between Lee and Lin. The difference between the two is skills, not some fictional mental block.

    Although I have to say, Chen Long is getting much better. The last time they played, Lin Dan thrashed him. Perhaps we might finally one day see Lin get knocked off. That would be a good day for badminton, finally.


    I did not entirely pointed at you.

    What load of horse brown stuff. I've already addressed this in another post, but no problem, I'll say it again. CHEN LONG IS 25 YEARS OLD. In 2012 Chen long was 23 YEARS OLD. Yeah, imagine that. He hasn't even reached his prime yet. What their head to head record DOESN'T mention is that Lee Chongwei used to THRASH Chen Long when he first started playing. The last couple of meetings, yes, including the BIG ONE, DIDN'T GO LEE CHONGWEI'S WAY.

    It's the same horse brown stuff as when people used to say a Lin Dan just reaching the senior circuits will never amount to anything because he can't beat Taufik Hidayat who was in his prime and the defending Olympic Champion.

    Why stop there in fact? First round Dan used to routinely lose to Xia Xuanze, especially at the big ones. In fact, their head to head record is five to four. Xia was also the one who knocked Lin out of the World Championship in 2003.

    Wow, how the hilarity is reaching monumental levels. The reverse is also true. Want to hear it?

    "LD probably trains and spars with CL day in and day out, so CL being the smart player he is would easily know LD's Achille's heel.

    "Yep. That helps, it's not that there is so much a glaring weakness anywhere in Lin Dan's game, its more that there are absolutely no surprises that can be trained for and prepared in secret. Whereas there's long enough between LD/LCW matches that stuff can be prepared in secret."


    Do you realize how utterly ridiculous that sounds?
     
    #91 mindreader, Oct 3, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2014
  12. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    Chen Long is still way to inconsistent to be paired with the other two. At 25 he should know better how to handle the pressure. But he may be one of those who matures slowly.
    People who don't believe in "mental block" do not know what it is to be under pressure. People react differently to high level of stress.
     
  13. galaxyduo

    galaxyduo Regular Member

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    I hate to say this to LCW fans but LCW is no longer the 2nd best player in the world. After watching LD and CL's match, CL is the 2nd best player in the world now.

    The second set between LD and CL showed the highest level of badminton I have seen for some time. LD was forced to play in his highest gear to stay in the match. CL was trying to close it out in 2 sets. LD actually looked pressured - everything he threw at CL, CL would reply with interest. It looked for a moment in the 2nd set that CL would walk away with the gold medal.

    If you substituted LCW in the 2nd set for CL, I think LD would have walked all over LCW. I don't think LCW could have played at the level CL did in the 2nd set against LD.

    Having said that, LCW is more consistent than CL. CL has too many ups and downs, especially with his slump earlier this year. But if CL is at his best, CL is a better player than LCW. And CL at his best is not far from LD. I bet you LD is much more nervous about CL overtaking him, than he is about LCW overtaking him.

    LD's rival now is CL. It is no longer LCW.
     
  14. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    LD and CL sparring helps Lin Dan, but you overlook the most important factor. Against LD, Chen Long gets no coaching. No game plan by the coaches, no pointing out weak points...anyone remember 2011? Chen Long lost against Kevin Cordon in the WC, and while LD had to concentrate and fight to beat LCW in the SS Finals, Chen Long was helpless against him like a bird without wings. Now, that was almost 3 years ago, so it has nothing to do with their current form, but the general idea still holds up - if he is nit prepared beforehand, Chen Long is significantly weaker. I remember the 2013 German Open, where he almost got beaten by Marc Zwiebler, yet the next week he destroyed LCW at the All England because he had basically been trained to beat that one guy for more than 2 years at the time.

    If you ask LD I'm pretty sure he'll say LCW is his rival. CL may be able to outrun them both on a normal day, but in all other aspects (except defense/counter attack) he still has to catch up.
    That LCW is still able to beat him, being significantly older, shows that he's actually the superior player and that it's mostly his physical advantage that helps CL win.
     
  15. mindreader

    mindreader Regular Member

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    You'll excuse me while I have a good chuckle over this one. Let's talk some real data shall we? The winner of the last ten World Championships. Lin Dan of course won it five times. He was the youngest winner at 23, but then again, he is the greatest ever. Hendrawan was 29 when he won in 2001. Xia Xuanze was about to turn 25. Taufik Hiyadat was 24. Chen Jin was about to turn 25 (huge upset that year).

    Chen Long is a 25 year World Champion. He is also the only one among those who had the misfortune of playing in the same era as an in-prime Lin Dan. Forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but I think he's coming along rather nicely.

    But hey, let's talk about pressure. The Datuk is under so much pressure. The Datuk works so hard. Ad nauseum. Wow, sure is hard being Lee Chongwei. Everyone else has it easy.

    Take Chen Long for example. He only had to make it through China's rigorous training system. I heard Du Pengyu recently retired (widely acknowledged as one of the hardest workers out there). So basically you make the Chinese national team at 21 or so. If you don't show results, you're done around 26 or so. No pressure/hard work there at all.

    Then when you do make the team, you are expected to win and not winning is not acceptable. I find it hilarious that Malaysian fans can claim Lee Chongwei is under a lot of pressure because the whole country would like him to win while thinking Chen Long is not under pressure when the whole of China EXPECT him to win.

    And of course, Chen Long is playing under the shadow of Lin Dan, the greatest ever. Imagine trying to fill those shoes. No, he's not being measure against his peers or even one of the top players. He's being measured against the GREATEST EVER. He is constantly being compared and told he's not good enough, he isn't Lin Dan and will never be/beat Lin Dan, then people get angry when he doesn't play like Lin Dan (say like, at the Thomas Cup). Now ain't that something? For someone who people say isn't Lin Dan, they sure expect him to play like Lin Dan.

    Yeah, being the face of Chinese badminton is such a walk in the park. But the Datuk, that's all pressure/mental block.
     
    #95 mindreader, Oct 4, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2014
  16. mindreader

    mindreader Regular Member

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    A 22 year old Chen Long was beat by Kevin Cordon and Lee Chongwei. Chen Long wasn't the player he is today. Lee Chongwei was BETTER than Chen Long IN THOSE DAYS, PERIOD. No ifs and buts. No amount of "coaching" was going to get Chen Long to beat Lee Chongwei consistently in those days. Since Lee last slaughtered Chen though in the 2012 Olympics, Chen Long had managed to build a 5 to 2 head to head record against Lee, including as mentioned, the big one. You know, kind of like how Lin Dan slaughtered Chen Long in the 2013 World Championship, yet these days you increasingly see Chen start to control some of the rallies, especially the first set. That's called CAREER PROGRESSION.

    So Chen Long can "outrun" Lee Chongwei but he can't "outrun" Lin Dan yet you think the difference between Lee and Lin is mental? Wow, how does that work? If they are equal, shouldn't the two be equally easy/difficult to "outrun?"

    How about we provide the real explanation? Chen Long's defense is OUTSTANDING. Lee Chongwei cannot penetrate such defense whereas Lin Dan can. That along sets them apart.

    Oh and btw, Chen Long has amazing footwork/reach too.
     
  17. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    I never said LD/LCW were equal. Dont be ridiculous, theres no way that can be said - I merely pointed out a few things I noticed MAY work in LD's advantage, some of them by his choice, and a few that dont work against him as his die-hard fans want anyone to believe (he didnt come back spontaneously to win the AG).
    I dont think he won this by chance and I never said so - I just said him winning the 16-20 game WAS a bit lucky, and anyone disregarding that has never played at a decent level or worships LD as some kind of god.
    Basically youre just extrapolating on my statement - Chen Long is physically superior to the two others, and while LCW cant reliably overcome that advantage, LD plays a different game that is -in my eyes- designed to keep the pace low and keep his effort to a minimum until he either frustrates his opoonent and counters a weak shot or has pulled His opponent out of position and attacks. His attack is very patient though, so he doesnt really give many counter-attacking opportunities, whereas LCW gets frustrated at times and tries to punch the shuttle through...
     
  18. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    j4ckie, just to let you know, CL and LD don't train or spar with each other anymore since LOG'12 as reported in the CHN newsmedia and acknowledged and permitted by LYB. The reasons are obvious as they are both vying for the same goals.

    galaxyduo, you made a very good point and I tend to agree with you that CL is fast becoming, if not already so, LD's archrival surpassing LCW. I came to this thinking esp after watching their AG final where CL played fascinating badminton forcing LD to be at his best from G2 onwards after being stunned into conceding G1. It appeared to me in G1 that LD was trying more to sap CL's energy who was clearly going all out to win as we've to bear in mind that was the final match of the AG's two weeks' of badminton for LD. Anyhow LD was as always fully aware of his own condition and knew how to pace himself in view of his younger, more athletic opponent for CL was apparently less ferocious and persistent in attacking LD in G2 and G3. However, kudos to CL who was able to push LD really hard until the very end.

    That's why I believe LD would do whatever he could to keep CL in his place,the last thing he wants is to let CL steal a march on him before the start of the Olympic cycle so as to maintain his still overwhelming psychological advantage. I'm sure LD will do likewise to LCW, at least in all the majors though not essential for the lesser tournaments as peaking at the right time is more important for LD than winning every encounter.

    As for CL vis-a-vis LCW, I daresay CL is no longer afraid of LCW, on the contrary he has the self-confidence and inner belief that he can deal with LCW more often than not which he has demonstrated in impressive fashion by prevailing in their last two confrontations at the Copenhagen WC'14 and in the AG team event that followed. In fact, he should be in no uncertain doubt at all that the living legend Lin Dan remains the one and only still insurmountable obstacle to his quest for world supremacy and greatness although his next aim is the Olympic gold.

    It should also be borne in mind that when Chen Long really started to beat LCW occasionally, he was about 22 years old (at the JPN Open Sep'11), not yet at his prime whilst the mighty LCW was still very much on top of his game, virtually staying at his peak from Beijing'08 to London'12 during which practically no-one else apart from Lin Dan could take a match off him (albeit Son Wan Ho was the only exception at the IND Open SS 2012), iirc. As a matter of fact, Chen Long now holds a 10-9 H2H advantage over LCW when you include their Asian Games team match. As an aside,you might be surprised to know that Chen Long has once, only once, beaten Lin Dan, that at a domestic league - offhand I couldn't recall where I read it, a Chinese article; if any of you have come across it, kindly post the link here.

    LCW has a mental block when facing Lin Dan? Why not, esp when he consistently loses to the same opponent but I hasten to add that's not the only nor the main reason for his downfall - Lin Dan's technical superiority, overall strategy, match preparation, and mental strength are other factors. Remember, even LCW's coach, Tay Seu Bok, once blurted that LCW often choked when playing Lin Dan.

    Is LCW closely matched with Lin Dan on the whole, specifically in terms of skills, as several of their epic battles seem to indicate? Maybe yes, once upon a time from after Beijing'08 to London'12 , maybe not so or not anymore. Why do I say that? My humble argument goes like this - if you take their encounters individually, particularly when the score ended in a narrow victory for Lin Dan, it would appear that LCW came close to beating his nemesis, therefore they were evenly matched; however, when you consider their overall results, the H2H of 22-9 in Lin Dan's favour, the undeniable statistics is loud and clear, objectively speaking, esp when you look at their major championships face-offs, they are irrefutably lop-sided towards Lin Dan. Normally, you'd expect a closely-matched opponent to take the odd win but in LCW's case, it's zilch in every single one of the showdowns that mattered to both adversaries, regardless the score, never mind whether it's a slim margin of victory or an outright, comprehensive rout it'd always end with Lin Dan invariably raising his clenched fists aloft in ultimate triumph again and again.
     
  19. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Sole exception: the 2011AE! Also, didnt he win a Thomas Cup encounter? That would have to be pretty far back, though.
     
  20. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    I agree with that.
     

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