Lee Chong Wei ( 李宗伟 )

Discussion in 'Malaysia Professional Players' started by tbleong, Jan 8, 2007.

  1. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    It depends how much the word hurts your sensibilities I suppose, I mean to cheat death the word sounds good when used like that. But he gained an advantage(i.e no other player was allowed) using unfair methods(having it in his system), cheat is the correct word.
     
  2. 0ozafo0

    0ozafo0 Regular Member

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    My thoughts exactly. There is a lack of evidence to say that LCW was guilty of intentionally doping, and BWF accepted their argument of unintentional contamination of dexamethasone in his supplements.

    Now examining this closer, the likelihood of dexamethasone some how contaminating his capsules is in my opinion unlikely. I work in a pharmacy, and I can attest that while dexamethasone is fairly easily attainable, it's also controlled in almost all countries as a prescription drug. It's not like you walk into a pharmacy and breathed in the air, BAM all of sudden you're going to test positive for dexamethasone.

    The more likely scenario is that he was given pills to take, and he took it without knowing what it was, and violated the rules unknowingly (like seriously guys, do you even know what dexamethasone is without going onto wikipedia?)

    Dexamethasone is for all intents and purposes a steroid drug, and mainly used for anti inflammatory, so if you train too hard and injure something, take some and it should lower the inflammation. It's even allowed for off season recovery. Obviously WADA does not publish precisely what testing procedures they use to test for those medication. As far as I understand, they don't even test for that drug directly, WADA examine for the ingredients that the drug breaks down to. There's essentially no benefit for LCW to use dexamethasone other than for recover. Dexamethasone is a steroid drug, but unlike anabolic steroid, the main purpose of this drug is to aid recovery, and maybe lower inflammation, thus at best taking dexa can raise the amount of punishment that you can take on your legs while running on court. Simply put, badminton require athleticism, but weighs heavily on tactics and more critically skill. If just taking drugs can make the next LCW, then any random joe off the street can do so.

    As BWF concluded, dexamethasone was found, LCW found probable cause to say he didn't violate the rules on purpose. Nonetheless, BWF concluded that due to his unintentional violation, 8 months ban was reasonable. If proof was found that LCW did indeed intentionally dope, then I doubt anything less than a 2 year ban would be reasonable from the BWF committee.

    Cheating is a fairly negative word, and implies LCW took dexamethasone on purpose. Cheating in the precise definition of violating the rules, it is a indisputable fact that LCW was found with a banned substance, the double testing confirms and reconfirms that fact. Cheating in the sense that he's a drug addict and requires dexamethasone to become a champion, I doubt.
     
    #11562 0ozafo0, May 6, 2015
    Last edited: May 6, 2015
  3. R20190

    R20190 Regular Member

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    To be fair, there is an argument as to whether there is actually an advantage in taking the substance and if the dosage he had would have given him any anyway. But that's probably beside the point. I don't think it is down to how sensitive you are, its about using the correct word(s). Cheating suggests and is defined as being dishonest and doing something with intent to gain an advantage. I'm merely pointing out that this was not the case. There is a difference between doing something intentionally and not - just as we have manslaughter and murder cases which are very different but still involved killing someone.

    I know what you're saying though, but I'm not a "fan" of LCW and have no reason to be sensitive about what is said about him. I just don't think it is right to label him as a cheat.
     
  4. 0ozafo0

    0ozafo0 Regular Member

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    Since you like arguing about semantics so much, here are the following precise definitions of the word cheat from Merriam-Webster dictionary viewable at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cheat

    transitive verb
    1
    : to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
    2
    : to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice
    3
    : to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting <cheat death>
    intransitive verb
    1
    a : to practice fraud or trickery
    b : to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>

    The word cheat denotes fraud, trickery, deceit and most importantly violate rules dishonestly. Lance Armstrong was a cheat, he defrauded his cycling authority, deceived, coerced his team mates and violated the rules intentionally and dishonestly.
    LCW's verdict concludes that he took the dexamethasone unintentionally, went out of his way to prove he is in fact guilty of taking dexamethasone, but due to contamination. In precise spirit of the word cheating, LCW hardly qualifies any of the criterion.

    Now debating the likelihood of what he presented to BWF is not really helpful, but speculative at best.
     
  5. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    I am not putting a label on him like this guy is and will always be a cheat or anything, I am just saying he did cheat in the WC got stripped of his medal and his points, I don't see the big deal. Just like when someone tries to influence a line judge etc. Was just stating the fact since it had been raised.
     
  6. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    Nah you can cheat by gaining an advantage using unfair methods, it is not exclusive to being intentional. Try finding a credible dictionary.
     
  7. 0ozafo0

    0ozafo0 Regular Member

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    You argue semantics, then flip side to say that the definition of a word doesnt conform to your understanding.

    I think i'll stick with the dictionary on this one.
    side note, should read up on the Dunning-Kruger effect.
     
  8. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    Haha ok whatever makes you happy. But I never flipped anything, it is straight out of a good dictionary, just not these rubbish ones you find online. Your side note was very ironic thanks for the laugh.
     
  9. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    Thanks for sharing your insight. I see the Panel's write-up as a sham. One reason is the feeble explanation on the source of dexa from the defense and the Panel's happy acceptance of it. The drug store owner did not want to give a testimony. And somehow his casual remark on a leading statement from the lawyer was used in the report as if that was the drug store owner's testimony that formed the foundation of the capsule defense.

    Yeah, there is no need to get hung up on the word "cheat". There was a clear violation of the rules leading to a punishment. With a wink, it would be best to let that pass.

    The punishment is already on the lighter side, arguably in the interest of the badminton industry overall. To further reduce that punishment with a wild card would make BWF a joker in the Olympic movement.

    People involved in Malaysian badminton should stop passing the buck and just let LCW replace one of the other two players. That unenviable task will likely fall into the hands of Morten Frost, the hired gun. It's time for him to earn his keeps.
     
  10. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    yes, the Panel's reasoning is very weak. But you have to give them credit. They were given the "comprehensive defense file" TWO days before the hearing.

    After the hearing, they have to write out the decision ASAP. There are so many typo, clerical and grammatical errors in it.

    But at the end of the day, dexa is not a performance enhancing drug and it is allowed out of competition. So eight month is fair and reasonable IMHO.
     
  11. 0ozafo0

    0ozafo0 Regular Member

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    yeah, no one's arguing about the violation.
    The Zulfadli and Chong Wei Feng both have pretty good reason to stick their neck out though. I'm sure they mean no personal vitriol against LCW, since he didn't want to get put into the predicament himself. But ZZ pays out of his own pocket to travel and compete, CWF's is higher ranking than ZZ. So really is Morten going to shoot down those two players when they legitimately have a claim to their spots for the championships.
    Getting a wild card is not hypocritical in my opinion, because LCW was taken out of action involuntarily. And Lin Dan was allowed his first wild card because WC 2013 was in china, and on his second attempt for a wild card, he was denied. LCW already served his punishment, even Indonesia, the host nation is willing to petition for his participation.

    But you are quite right, giving special treatment to a player unable to participate due to violation on doping really doesn't goes against anyone's instincts. They've denied Lin Dan, not a stretch to deny LCW.
     
  12. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    One bright spot of the Panel's report is the determination of the out of competition use (the operation) as irrelevant. So LCW was caught on "in competition use", in violation of the rules.

    I see a suspension between 6 to 12 months being not out of the range of reason. It was just how poorly that was justified, or not, in the Panel's decision.
     
  13. 0ozafo0

    0ozafo0 Regular Member

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    I'm sure public perception on LCW's character also played a part. LCW is portrayed as a public sporting hero who's a good husband and a honest character. Appeasing the fans who are crying for their hero to come back must have influenced the decision at least a bit on the panels decision to essentially allow LCW back immediately after the hearing.
     
  14. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    I would just say that (1) yes, there was a violation; (2) based on LCW's character and the lack of evidence to the contrary, the violation was unintentional and degree of violation was not severe, therefore, we deem a suspension of x months to be appropriate. That would be much better than putting so much red herring and wild goose chase in the report and coming off looking insincere.
     
  15. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    This is what the Panel said at para 20:

    But the Panel didn't say whether the fact that Dexa is allowed out-of-competition is a relevant factor in determining the 8-month suspension.
     
    #11575 pcll99, May 6, 2015
    Last edited: May 6, 2015
  16. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    They didn't. As I have suggested, they could have, in support of the argument that "the degree of violation was not severe". That would be more convincing than the fairy tale capsule defense.
     
  17. 0ozafo0

    0ozafo0 Regular Member

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    fairy tale capsule is quite a good way of putting it. That was my first impression when I read their reasoning. Seriously? after taking those supplements for years, it's mighty convenient for just that capsule to get contaminated.

    Oh well, i'm just happy LCW is back, makes for exciting competition.
    Now that there's a rise in form from Kento Momota, an Kidambi Srikanth, I'd like to see them face off again to see how far they've gotten in the 8 month absence of LCW

    Badminton's definitely the most exciting it has been in a long time.
     
  18. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    For sure, between capsules and cookies...
     
  19. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    What if, at the final of World Championship this year, LCW fights LD and LCW wins.

    That would be something, wouldn't it!!
     
  20. 0ozafo0

    0ozafo0 Regular Member

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    octagon.jpg

    World Championship 2015 final's day venue :D :D
     

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