I love badminton, and I consider people I play with at my club as friends, so I'd like to find ways to clear away a few things which I suspect to be unhonourful as to keep it as enjoyable as possible. I therefore come here to ask a few questions to clear some doubts I have according to rules of the game, but also for practical advice. 3rd Topic A situation I rarely have in singles with men is the shuttle being hit above the net. This situation however happens quite frequently when playing mixed, and happened to me several times in the past weekend (covering two different competitions). For the first time I played with a guy who committed this fault in singles quite frequently (and indeed more frequently so than any other person I've played with before). In a singles game he committed this fault 6 times (according to me). I was not very familiar with the system used in the competition and as there was a person (from my opponent's club) sitting on a chair facing the court and holding the points "display", I assumed this person would serve as umpire of a sort and call out faults if he saw any. For this reason I didn't say anything during the first set, during which 4 times my opponent hit the shuttle almost vertically downwards, according to me above/pass the net, without a fault being called. As I assumed that the person on the chair had the role to call out faults I thought I must have seen wrong but was gradually distracted from playing well as I was paying close attention to how he would hit at the net if he was to do the same again (trying to "confirm" to myself what I believed I had seen). Then in the second set he did it again, a 5th time, and this time so clearly that I just stopped playing without the fault being called out, told my opponent he hit above the net (his reply was "this is not forbidden, you are only forbidden to touch the net"). I then took him to the "umpire" on the chair, who happened to be his friend, for him to confirm that hitting the shuttle pass the net was a fault. His friend confirmed and gave me this point. My opponent hit above the net (less clearly) one more time that second set and won the match (at that last point my match had been so disastrous and since the last time was not as clearly faulting as the previous time I wasn't sure whether he had done it again and didn't call it out a second time). After this first game my friend filmed all subsequent games in which I played. I played doubles against a nice guy from my club who plays very well, and a super talented girl. I very much enjoyed the match even though I got completely crushed. There is only one instance from this very talented girl that I didn't like so much: At one point during the game I thought she hit above/pass the net, and from the previous experience called it out without waiting for someone else to do so. My opponents looked at each other, the person counting the points (which I believe was her dad) said we can do the point again. This time however my friend had been taking a video of the entire match: At home I looked at the video and not only does the girl hit above/pass the net (fault) but her subsequent gesture strongly suggest that SHE VERY MUCH KNEW SHE DID. This point wouldn't have made any difference and my opponents very much deserved their victory. That being said, I can't help but to find it very ****ed up, especially from a very experienced and talented player as her, to very much know she faulted on a fault I called out AND to know she would win the match anyways AND still pretend as if she had not faulted and let this be resolved with an unfair replay of the point. I guess my issue here is not about this match but about the fact that when playing mixed this happens often and that each time either the fault is refuted and the opponents get the point OR we replay the point (I'm usually fine replaying the point as I'm never 100% certain with anything I see, but if you think of it it's quite an unfair resolution when most likely a fault has been committed). Only ONCE IN MY LIFE did a mixed opponent (a girl) agree (in training) for my team to get the point upon this fault. On Sunday, I won a game against an opponent who again (though a bit less clearly perhaps) hit above the net (twice in total during the game). Each time I stopped and asked if it was hit above the net, and each time the opponent replied "No, I didn't.", mimicing the shot at a distance from the net. On one occasion I conceded the point and on the second the opponent's partner (who was watching) and the organiser said that the point should be replayed. This time again the game had been recorded on video which I duly watched at home. And the video shows the opponent hitting above/pass the net. To me this matter is not about winning or losing the game, nor about points, but simply about fairness. When in doubt I always concede a point to the opponent (or offer to replay the shot if reasonably certain of my position on the situation). Even if I win a game in which this happens (as my last game) I am very bitter at the situation: Playing in conditions in which the environment thwarts the odds against the direction of the rules. What is my recourse against this happening? And what is the best practical way to react? How do I get shots which are clear faults in my eyes NOT to be replayed? Can I tape a camera on one of the poles to be able to quickly review a shot in doubt on this matter and have peace of mind about this? And if so, when is the right time? Should I do it systematically before a match and appear like a maniac? Or only do it once I've already seen what I suspect to be a fault and appear like a bad player? Also a camera taped to a pole (my phone for instance) might interfere with crosses initiated at those extremities (especially so in doubles, in which this fault from far occurs the most often). Do I have any legal basis do defend doing this (taping a camera) ? What better alternatives could you think of? (there is the alternative from filming the game from a distance as my friend did, but the problem is that when looking from either side of the court the fault has to be very pronounced to be clearly visible with that angle compared to a camera on the pole, the second problem being that what it films is not immediately available and in practical conditions can only be viewed once the match is over, so it clearly doesn't serve the same function as a camera that can be quickly and immediately accessed by the players during the game and show an angle that allows to clearly confirm or rule out a fault at the net).
No, you can not tape anything to the netpoles: The whole court and its immediate surroundings should be free of any obstructions. How far the immediate surroundings extend depends on the regulations of the tournament or league you're playing in. You can position a camera outside the court on a tripod though. If you position it where an umpire would sit, you can see net faults easily. However, I am unaware of any rules which would allow a camera to determine faults. Therefore, your opponent must agree to review critical rallies with the camera's help. What you can do is request an umpire. In tournaments, contact tournament control. In league matches, review your league regulations: Likely there is some stipulation of what to do in case of repeated conflict, for example searching for an licensed umpire / experienced player in the hall. Note that per ITTO §6.7, if there is any doubt, a fault is not called and the game goes on. Also note that rule §13.4.2 does allow your opponent to invade your court, if they hit the shuttle on their side. Maybe you can post a video? Personally, I would focus on what I can do. If you're not playing with an umpire, then it's not a high-level match, and any cheating can be overcome by better technique. If your opponents can frequently kill shuttles even on your side, then either they're much faster than you, or they can anticipate a weak net shot. So I'd focus on my clearance shots, so that if I see an opponent lingering that close to the net I can play a clear over them.
I could only place a tripod in between two courts and there is a box for used shuttles there already. Rules are there for a reason and there should be ways to ensure they are enforced (not after several points have been lost to an unhonnest opponent already but guaranteeing that the game you are about to play will be fair and that you can relax and only focus on your own game rather than using a great deal of your attention on judging the shots by the rules). There is a reason that rule exists, which makes your last argument sound like bullshit to me (no matter how much you may be about to rationalize it). Hitting above the net allows you to kill a shot that normally only could be lifted. Making a net shot that only can be lifted is NOT bad technique and is used by players even at the highest level. I don't think there's any arguing around that, nor that it would be smart to shape your technique based on how people cheat rather than shaping them to play conditions that reflect the rules. Whatever technique you shape it is what you will be left with. Thank you for contributing your well informed knowledge of the rules. It helps to have this input and I appreciate it in all my posts.
Your options are to keep playing and make sure your game outweighs any advantage, argue, refuse to play with the person, refuse to play at all, join another group.
Thank you Chung. This is a very useful answer. As a way of dealing with this, and based on these options, I am considering if I should adopt the following way of dealing with this: If I am >90% certain that there was a net fault, I will call it out and won't settle for the point to be replayed, and if the opponent reacts unhonourably and/or refuses that I get the point, I will refuse to continue playing unless I get an umpire at the net AND that this first fault at least be replayed. If I am 30-90% certain there was a net fault, I will call it out and won't settle for that point to be awarded to the opponent, and if the opponent refuses to replay and/or reacts unhonourably, I will refuse to continue playing unless I get an umpire at the net. If I am 0-30% certain there was a net fault, I will ask the opponent and settle in line with whatever their reaction is: Either replay the point or confirm that my opponent won the point. The question is: What happens next? If I don't get an umpire and refuse to play and file a complaint who wins the game? I don't really have any evidence and it will be my word against the opponent's.
You know, badminton isn't maths. There's no black and white to everything. In all these threads you've posted the common theme is how to make a match as fair as possible, well the answer is get an umpire with line judges on every line and set up Hawkeye for your match, not very realistic is it? So really, everything is subject to the players being reasonable and honest towards each other. The issue is just like in real life, there'll be people who will not be reasonable or honest, so what you gonna do, cite the rules every time you're unhappy with something? I feel like a lot of what you've talked about have to do with the character of your opponents, which any amount of referring to the rules will not solve unless you get umpires as I've said above.
Your point about the intrinsic link between such situations arising in the first place and the opponent's character is valid. So, if you take the proposed solution that I shared right above your comment, which is in line with what you say: What happens next? If I don't get an umpire and refuse to play and file a complaint who wins the game? I don't really have any evidence and it will be my word against the opponent's.
as @llrr says, the amount of regulation enforcement varies. it goes from a spectrum of no officials in a recreational game to having umpire and line judges and hawkeye (more judges) in a world tour match. one pays very little to enter a recreational game and from a financial viewpoint, the amount of judging reflects that. from a significance viewpoint, it is not a career ending decision. having to fight for each judgement, fair or not fair (to YOUR eyes) takes away the fun of playing the game.
having said that, the threads that @VeritasC&E started are really great, as they are issues that we normally do see in recreational play and nice to hear different people's take on them.
In a very low level tournaments with no umpire, surely the use of phone camera put on the umpire's chair is acceptable for both parties. When in doubt, just refer to the camera. Heck, if I'm the opponent, I'd be glad someone is prepared enough to do that. I'm not sure anyone would object the use of it.
When considering the organizer and other players of the tournament is it even conceivable? It means whenever one side is questionning the judgement of the other one or both are unsure, the game will stop for a good 1/2 minutes? The time to review on their phone, once, twice and put it back on the chair, record back, etc. What happened in case the video angle is biased? What about the other scheduled matches of the day for the organizer and other players? Is it even fair if just a few players can do it and the others can’t? How many minutes would this translate to at the end of the day? The way I see if it’s not a rule it’s because there is a reason for it not to be one. Even at the professional level not all courts are covered by the IRS system.
I think that's the future of low level play: Everyone comes with a 50€ 360• HQ Camera w Build in AI that automatically tracks faults and score, signals who's next to serve, breaks, pauses and winner. And in the evening everyone can review their games on an online platform with their AI stats and training tips/stats. And many "old schools" will be crying for the good old times when they could cheat, push beyond rules to their benefit, abuse of idealist players, degrade the sport spirit and get away with it.
That reminds me of the VAR (Video Assistant Referee) issue in football. It stirred up a lot of controversy before its implementation between the "old schools" and the "new schools" yet since its official implementation in most major leagues and the World Cup both sides are still raising their concern from time to time because at the end of the day it is still subject to interpretation and human error. Just presented differently as you're simply moving the issue somewhere else. Same with the Hawk-Eye system in tennis or football, even on their website, it says there is an average error of 3.6mm on every decisions. PS: I'd be surprised to hear a badminton player win a game solely by cheating on 21 points x2. Besides, even at the local level it's a small world and cheaters are fast to be identified and to be looked down upon.
Well of course it all depends on the circumstances. Like, in a church or office tournaments, many times it's a more relaxed time schedule.
I do understand the frustration though. I've played against a few people who consistently call the shuttlecock out when it's clearly in. And the ones whose serve becomes more and more illegal as they're losing the match.
This is not true. At the Dutch Open championships, there is a camera attached to the net post. That the net post is fat is neither here nor there. See picture. The video is
@VeritasC&E I feel you, mate. Beeing not the most relaxed person on court (too many testo ) I can really understand that these issues and unclear decisions and unglory points break up your concentration and affected your games. Aside from these faults, can you report how that happend? Your shot, was it under pressure etc.? I play XD as well and my aim is to not play anything slow to the net when I face these camping girls. I really feel you, because I also had tournaments where people fooled me, which messed up my concentration and maybe cost me a win or even a tight loss, who knows but it harm my performance. It is very difficult to proof the evidence of these faults. Even with a camera, the totally flow of the game is distracted. So please call an umpire out. For yourself I would try to avoid the scenario of these kills. Maybe the opponent was damn fast and good to anticipated and scored with the fault a point (you can't control this) or you question yourself when the problem occur and beside complaining (which is alright, don't get me wrong) you try to made it not so easy to do this do better shot quality training, to look where opponent stand and faster tractory of your strokes. I'm totally on your side, but I also know how to be the weirdo at clubs and tournaments who complain according to rules and get unnecessary fights which totally mess up my and my partners game and concentration. I refuse people to play who don't play according the rules, have a poor sportmanship or cheat. At club nights you can walk away, but for tounaments you just have two options: an umpire (best thing would be if he is not related to any pair) and train your own shots which let the do this. I know mixed is a tough discipline and all about control and placement and if you don't train it much it is difficult to get past a quick lady at the front.
Just call for an umpire or impartial person to call the net faults or the whole match. Especially for matches against opponents who you know are likely to commit net faults. If you don't get one, don't play. Walk away, just like during club nights. You can't imagine how many players don't even know the rules and how many club mates I had to tell what is and what isn't allowed at the net. Another time a real referee (not kidding!) who was a spectator at our match told me I'm not allowed to leave the court to have drink at the midgame interval. Looked through the whole rule book, no such thing. I was prepared to show her the printed rules next time I see her, but never did. What's the point?! She should know better, though. But that's only the tip of the iceberg with cheating. There's also shuttle speed, keeping the right score, line calls and so on. Also, I find the point about not giving your opponent the option to play such shots/commit faults and about being better utterly ridiculous. I don't know what tournaments you guys play but usually the players are very close in terms of level of play. Every point counts! If you can beat your opponents easily and don't care about faults/single points maybe you should enter a higher level tournament? Cheating occurs at every level of play. Doesn't matter how good you get, there'll always be somebody trying to screw you over, unless you're at the very highest leagues.
