Weird Serve illegal or not

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by ormy4, Oct 27, 2016.

  1. ormy4

    ormy4 Regular Member

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    Fellow lifts racket up so end of his handle is by the top of his head with frame lowered down to his top
    rib. He serves fast and bird is driven at you so throws you off. Serve is not above waist and head of racket is
    in a downward angle so to me doesn't jump out as being against the rules. It does though act like someone is
    serving sideways as no arc on the bird. To me it almost seems like someone is working around the rules but
    must have been discussed at some point in time. Is it illegal as it has no arc if driven at your head ?

    I was at a tournament and in general serving driving me insane as one fellow was serving at shoulder height.
    Asked a coach and he said height is whatever you can get away with. Sad to see good players knowingly cheating or at last second changing direction of racket to parallel and driving them at you.
     
  2. Fidget

    Fidget Regular Member

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    Well, the interesting thing about tournaments is that you meet all kinds of styles you are not used to.
    The challenge is trying to adapt to beat them. That is, after all, part of the fun.

    But some "styles" are downright dubious. And that should be what umpires and tournament referees are for.
    But one supposes that is not an option for every court in the average Canadian local tourney.

    Ormy, it sounds like you established that this player's serve was technically legal, even if distractingly unusual.
    So, were you able to put aside your annoyance and comeup with a strategy?
    Because if you were seething with resentment, wishing there was an ump, then you couldn't calmly conceive ways to counter this tactic.
    Tell us how it turned out.

    P.S. People with a specific unusual technique that works to their advantage often have other quirky techniques which act as liabilities. Keep an eye on their whole style.

    (I'm talking ordinary human badminton, not the elites. Those folks may be great at technique, tactics, strategy, and fitness .... but they are missing that idiosychratic variety and lovable flair that exists at C- duffer level):rolleyes:
     
  3. maxout

    maxout Regular Member

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    Sounds like a modified version of the "S service" - Sidek service. Love them until it was banned for cutting up the feathers hahahaha :p
     
  4. druss

    druss Regular Member

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    Is he tall? I do drive serves now and then and they can be effective against those that can't do around the head shots but I'm only 5'10". I can see some 6'4" being able to do a very flat serve.
     
  5. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    Nope, none of the service rules say anything about the resulting shot (and that's good, as it would be incredibly hard to judge). Without a video, it's hard to say, but it sounds very much legal.

    However, with such a downward racket, I believe it is very hard - especially if the serve is quite fast - to get the racket up in time. Have you tried playing a fast drive to his face?

    Don't ask coaches - that's what they will say all the time! Instead, next time this happens, go to the tournament director and request an umpire. If you know that your next opponent is problematic (having seen them, or played before against them), you can also request an umpire right away.

    Even if there are no umpires in official capacity, there likely is an umpire present among the players (at the tournaments, I play at, I often see multiple fellow umpires). Even if not, an educated neutral player may fill in. I myself have been called multiple times at tournaments where I played at. Surprisingly, those who request umpires are often umpires themselves.
     
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  6. ormy4

    ormy4 Regular Member

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    He is a nice fellow but maybe for fun I will go cool serve I will have to try that. I am 6 2" so will stand on my tip toes and launch a couple
    to get a reaction.

    Guess I am just old as see people disregard rules so often. Rules whether it be sports or driving were more adhered to back in the day. So many people drive through lights and text and folks even jay walking is so common. If I was bad got the old slipper to the butt but now you
    can't do a thing or your in trouble. Ya gets your computer time limited.
     
  7. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    You haven't established that the serve is illegal and there doesn't seem to be anything in your description about his serve being illegal.

    In actual fact, your post sounds more like a moan about being caught out by an unexpected serve action and not being able to adjust to a new trick. :). It's time for an old dog to learn some new tricks. :)
     
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  8. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    This is one of my favourite serves. There's nothing illegal about it. People make up all kinds of strange rules - one didn't like me changing hands mid-rally and told me it was against the rules. You need to remember that what you don't like, and what the rules say, are two entirely different things.
     
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  9. ormy4

    ormy4 Regular Member

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    With folks getting taller imagine at some point more guidelines will be set in place. Goal was to find out if legal and no one has said it was not so question answered. Do I think being taller I would use this type of serve against friends I play and answer would be no. Effect is to much like serving sideways which falls under the guidelines. They hate me enough when I hit them with smashes that this would drive
    them crazy as when your over 50 things happen a bit slower. :D
     
  10. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    The shuttle must travel upwards towards the net upon serve. The guideline is already in place for tall players.
     
  11. ormy4

    ormy4 Regular Member

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    Problem lies in the fact that rules when serving in the normal position establish a trajectory that must be followed by having the head of the
    racket lower than the handle.When you switch orientation to straight up and down there is no guideline. Thus if the bird rises up even
    1/4 inch you have technically hit it in an upward trajectory.

    On the court it translates to a lower angle so you can stand closer to the service line thus reducing reaction time for your opponent. If you are taller you can really take advantage of it . This is of course when doing a drive or far serve as a negative way to do it when serving short.

    So still legal but an advantage due to no established trajectory when using that orientation. For myself when facing folks serving this way
    will move back a bit more with a deeper bend and racket ready to defend drives to left side.
     
  12. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    Being tall is an advantage, yes. That's just something we have to deal with. On the contrary taller players get less reaction time in the rear court, and are more susceptible to flat shots.

    It also sounds like you've already found a way to deal with the service issue.

    But yes at a tournament, if you think someone is serving illegally, request an umpire. That's all it takes. If they've practised an illegal serve, and an umpire faults it, they're at a disadvantage.
     
  13. R20190

    R20190 Regular Member

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    Yeah this is not an easy serve to deal with. Whether or not there is an Umpire, I think the important thing here is to learn to deal with it because even if there is an Umpire, I certainly wouldn't count on them agreeing that it is an illegal serve all the time.

    You have to be prepared for a drive serve all the time. The problem for the server is, the faster the drive, the faster it can come back, providing the receiver returns it well. So it's a bit of a gamble as it can put the server or his/her partner under pressure which is why you very rarely see pros playing this serve.

    I tend to return drive serves by driving it back hard at the server or down the centre towards the partner but be ready for a quick third shot.
     
  14. LordGopu

    LordGopu Regular Member

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    It's not just pros. Even at my level drive serves are not common. There are a couple of people who do them because we're a club and we play with lower levels sometimes (and drives do work against lower levels) but most of us are fast enough to drive them right back which makes them stop doing it. Hell I return them even though I stand right on the line.

    I think players just shouldn't bother with this kind of serve. You're better off practicing a proper short serve that's hard to attack at all then some trick serve. Because, as was already said, at higher levels it becomes pretty much ineffective.
     
  15. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    It has the same use as a flick serve, variation.
     
  16. maxout

    maxout Regular Member

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    Correct - it may get you a point or two due to the surprise factor and that is all.
     
  17. LordGopu

    LordGopu Regular Member

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    At least the flick serve is harder to get (if done right). Sending the bird right to your opponent seems like a bad idea. Like if your opponent is fast enough to react to and get flick serves, then it seems like they're probably fast enough to return a drive serve. Plus since you have to serve upwards, you can only put so much speed into the bird before they can dodge it and the bird goes out.

    I'm not saying it doesn't add variety, just that learning to do that kind of serve (and taking into account its effectiveness) it doesn't seem worth learning. Though once you learn how to do flick serves you could probably do a drive but at least flick serves are worth practicing. Even the wide doubles serve is worth it because even though it's not ideal for return angles, the variety is good. But at least those aren't sending the bird straight to a player so they don't even have to move to return it.

    I guess I'm just trying to say that learning drives too early (like before your short and flick serves are good quality) is a bad idea and by the time you can do a drive without practicing it, you and your opponents are probably too good to make use of drive serves anyway.
     
  18. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    It's the same idea as a flick serve, all the way down to practicality. Nobody constantly plays flick serve, unless it works really well. If your opponent punishes the drive serve, then don't use it. If your opponent is fast and punishes a flick serve, you don't use it. While at a professional level there's not much use for it because they will punish it... we aren't professionals. Neither are our opponents. The drive serve is surprisingly easy to play. When I use it I always play it to the centre line. I want my opponent guessing if it's in or not, that hesitation benefits me.
     
  19. druss

    druss Regular Member

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    Very true, you also want them to hesitate so they aren't jumping on a short serve over and over again. I've caught more than one player already moving (which yes is against the rules) before I hit the shuttle. A flick or drive serve keeps them honest.
     
  20. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    Exactly, lack of variation works against you. Keep your opponent guessing, right from the serve.

    This is why I find the middle best, especially in doubles. It also means your opponents are constantly aware of each other's position, and that too can produce hesitation.
     

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