That is one of his strengths that is not obvious to many. LYD not only has incredible reactions, but his major strength is actually his ability to adapt and improvise very very quickly in compromised situations. I remember seeing a slow-mo of him playing a round the head drive below net height close to the net and the shuttle was deflected slightly by the net which he managed to control and adapt his stroke perfectly - where most people would have missed the shuttle or hit it into the net. If it wasn't for the slow mo, it would have seemed like just a simple shot. Also, when you watch him play blocks back to the net, the camera angle doesn't do it justice at how tight and how good the trajectories are that prevents fast players like KSS from attacking them. He plays these blocks even when he knows KSS is at the net - shows the quality of the shot and the confidence he has in his touch. But about their form, as I mentioned previously, I think even if KJG manages to get his form back, I personally don't think he possesses a strong enough rear court attack that LYD requires to be a world beater. Don't get me wrong KJG is a brilliant player and at times produces some genius shots but he just doesn't have an effective enough smash to do enough damage and it's not something he can improve much more on really. The other areas such as coordination, strategy, form etc they can work on and develop but when your smash is not strong enough there is not much you can do. Of the available players, YYS is still probably the best partner for LYD imo.
Its great that 3 of the 4 guards are still there. Can expect a lot of upsets in MD next year, especially if they can play in AE. Just imagine those seeds who will play LYD at R1 all the tournaments.
And I would propose that KSS can match and exceed LYD in all those areas of reaction speed, angle, trajectory, novel creative shots, blocks, net shots, drives, round the head shots, smash effectiveness, defence, counter attack etc... even when they are the same age. That's how good KSS is. Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
I’m probably falling for your bait here but what the heck! No doubt that KSS is an extremely talented player and exceeds LYD in some areas but I cannot fully agree that he is better in all areas. The two players have a completely different approach to winning rallies, they have a different technique, playing styles, strategy and mentality. I agree that KSS has exceptional speed generally, particularly around the net and in going forward. For me, he is less spectacular going side to side or backwards, where his speed is comparable to say MG. His shorter stature and fast feet makes him look like his is covering more ground than others. He anticipates really well at the net and coupling this with his fast whippy and short racquet actions makes him look unbelievably fast but in terms of coverage, he is still covering about the same area of the net as someone much taller and seemingly slower – like Boe for example who relies more on reach than speed of movement. KSS is able to do what he does largely because he has the support of the comparably fast MG. To be able to commit himself and sometimes go all out on some shots depends on his partners ability to cover him if he makes a mistake/or the return comes back stronger than he expected. LYD has a very different approach. He is a safe pair of hands and looks at the long game. He never overcommits himself and thereby putting his partner at risk. It’s a very calculated, systematic and disciplined approach to winning. If you watch how he plays his first attacking shots at the net in any given rally, he doesn’t often go for winners (unless it’s a huge gap/short lift) but instead he tries to place his first attacking shot such that it almost guarantees a weak return. KSS does not generally do this, he goes more for the quick kill and often does not expect the shuttle to come back – such is his confidence in his ability. Often it works for him unless it is against an equally fast pair. One of the main differences in the two approaches is that LYD’s system allows him to play without going all out and is therefore more forgiving on him on bad days when he may not be fully fit and ultimately allows him to prolong his playing career. Whereas with KSS, if he is anything less than 100% you will see quite a decline in his performance. Sure we haven’t really seen a great deal of that so far and he is still riding the wave of success at his young age, but as he ages I suspect we will begin to see a notable decline in his performance. I agree that KSS has the more effective smash of the two and is also more creative which makes him more exciting to watch for many but when it comes to defence and touch though, for me, LYD is second to none – certainly during his peak. I feel he has lost a bit of his touch since returning from his retirement, not sure if this is because of this new racquet or lack of form. As with his net kills, it is clear that LYD has a strategy, he is always looking to do something with his defence and is never content with just getting it back. He is always making each short count, slowly building an advantage. There are very few occasions where he makes a mistake on his defence, even when an opponent is smashing from midcourt or killing at the net, he is consistently still able to return the shuttle with interest – which is clearly no fluke. Yes both KSS and MG have been able to pull off similar feats but less frequently and often is just a case of “getting it back over the net”. KSS has very fast reactions too which helps with his defence but he just does not possess the ultra-refined hand-eye coordination and touch that LYD has. Take KSS’s round the head shots, yes he does manage to win a lot of points from his round the head shots at the net – mostly through the element of surprise but I suspect he is guessing a lot rather than actually knowing where his opponent is going to hit the shuttle as he sometimes jumps in the wrong direction. But despite the success he has had with the round the head I actually think it’s an area of weakness. If you watch his matches against equally fast opponents with strong flat games, they often exploit his round the head area with a tight and fast flat drive as there is a good chance that he will hit it into the net. I’m convinced the Chinese are aware of this. Having said all that, imo KSS is a better all-rounder and is certainly producing consistent results with MG although I do not feel he is the best front court player of all time. Probably make my top 5 though.
Nah. Just nah. His defence isn't anywhere near, for example. Yeah, he hits a lot of great behind the backs, but that is only because he got caught out of position in the first place. I do think he's the more variable, creative player from the back, but at his age LYD was just as good a smasher (same power, better angle).
Just curious, who's your top 5 beside him ? lee yong dae, hendra setiawan, cai yun, and zhang nan ? who do you think the best of all them ? If only lee yong dae know how to play a deceptive drop shot...my only criticism about his backcourt game.
Great lord, an entire essay good points. I agree with a lot of them, possibly all. I'm also starting to edge towards KSS as a top 5 net players, but for now I'm hanging on to old favorites. Hendra Setiawan is still ahead for sure, so is Tony Gunawan, and I'm also putting LYD and CY ahead. Also Kim Dong Moon. I'm certainly missing someone from the past (Park Joo Bong?), but I really don't have a lot of video before 2000...
Yeah for defence I would rate LYD higher than KSS for sure, but for offence I would say KSS is much much more deadly in front of the net whereas LYD rely more on unforced errors from his opponent, and one thing for sure for general people KSS playstyle is much more exciting and entertaining compared to LYD.
Yep in terms of front court players, all of the above with Park Joo Bong being the best ever in my opinion. But although ZN is very good indeed and despite his achievements, I’m still not completely convinced he is quite on the same level as the others mentioned. There is something about his play that doesn’t make me feel “wow, this guy is definitely in a different league”. But he would certainly make my top 10 I guess. And contrary to what most people think, I personally don’t consider Gunawan to be right up there as one of the best front court players – if we are considering front court player qualities in isolation. If we were looking at top MD players of all time, he would be right up there for me though. LYD's deceptive drops wouldn't be very effective anyway as his smash is too weak now and his deceptions are pretty poor generally. In my view his problem in the rear court is a combination of several things. Power wise, yes his smash is weak and although I think he can actually hit his smashes slightly harder he chooses not to, whether he is protecting a previous injury or saving energy, I don't know (although interestingly I did notice a few years ago that his technique doesn’t look that efficient… but I digress). I think his smash is ineffective mostly because he is not varying his smashes enough. He needs to take a look at how players like Setiawan makes use of the power they have by varying its placement and angle/height.
It will have been great if KSS/MFG played in CaiYun/ FHF era. As we know Kevin dominates Li/Liu and Liu/Zhang. Are these 2 that much worst and different CY/FHF? and head to head bordering to 8-1 and 4-1. What will the H2H be if they play in the same era. Does that mean Li/Liu much worst than CY/FHF? in which they are absolute tanker. See, if you just put names beside them , I wouldnt have know if Li/Liu will lose 8-1 to Kevin. In fact i thought they should dominate most of the matches. and what about ZN/FHF record against LYD? Otherwise we will never know who is better. Most will just be about biases. Though if you ask me, LYD has better defence that is true, play on safety. Kevin is more of a risk taker, he generates different excitement with his smaller stature that makes him exciting to watch, more imaginative. Probably what badminton and Doubles need as badminton keeps evolving. At the end of the day, its about who that remembers your name. Probably we will never see someone like Kevin again but LeeYongDae and Hendra ...both their gameplay almost the same..
Interesting, I don't know much about the players back then but I heard steen saying something like, "korea only have 1 really great front court player since back then, and that's lee yong dae". I think he talk about this in r2 of japan open when kam/son playing against seo/kim, he also talk the difference between indonesia and korea when it comes to their mens doubles. korea always teach their md from defense>attack>front court play, while indonesia it's the exact opposite...front court play>attack>defense.
Yes. A hundred times yes. Liu Cheng is orders of magnitude worse than FHF or CY. FHF, despite being on the very tail end of his career (not even being sure whether he wanted to continue past 2012) managed to have even more success with ZN than LC, despite ZN not giving MD the same focus back then as he has done since 2016. Li/Liu arent actually a great pair imop. Li is fairly weak when you play close to his body and tends to make errors around the net (not strong if the shuttle is between shoulder and knee height, imop), partially because he cant seem to get low into a squatting stance, and Liu....I dont see any technical, and very little tactical talent with that guy. Li has a great smash going for him, whereas the biggest compliment you can give Liu is that he is somewhat stable and a great fighter. He's not a great athlete (seriously, one of the worst in current MD Top20, cant jump, isnt really fast, has ineffective movement, although that seems to be in part because of his bone structure/physique) and whenever they have a really good rally, you can really see the effort on his part, and that his racket skills and speed come from hours upon hours of training instead of a natural talent. That is admirable as well, but I dont see much potential for this pair to improve, and their weak areas are getting exploited. To be honest, I dont know how the minions would have fared in the 2006-2012 period. I dont think they would have had sustained success, especially given that there were some slower halls back then or shuttle speeds were a bit slower - Korea and Hong Kong come to mind immediately (there were years where some MD started to clear in the KO because they couldnt smash anymore). I'm not sure what exactly caused the MD game to change as drastically as it has since then, but if you put the minions into a more traditional front/back orientation the way MD used to be played back then, I see them as much weaker than LYD/JJS or FHF/CY, simply because they dont have the same penetration from the back court and those pairs both had very solid defenses (JJS/LYD were outstanding). It's a fun hypothetical to consider how they would do if you somehow put all of them in their physical prime today, because I imagine that would be a very close affair imop. CY is probably the most versatile net player of them all with the best back court play, but FHF might not win the attack as much as MGF or JJS, and defensively I'd put them JJS/LYD>CY/FHF>MGF/KSS. Minions have the best attacking flat play of them, I think. All in all, I'd really love to have that play out Another interesting aspect would be CY's/LYD's reaction to KSS' antics. I think CY would be fairly annoyed, but fired up, given how he reacted to BoMo who were considered the 'dirty' pair back then, and LYD probably wouldn't show much of an obvious reaction...
I wouldn't say LYD relied on unforced errors, rather than forced errors. I'd also say his backhand side was a bit better than Kevin's, who has the more spectacular interceptions and backhand kills, but also makes errors there. LYD has a great round the head forehand in flat play, few others are that good there. Setiawan, if you give the shot too much height. CY, if he can jump into it. But LYD is probably one of the, if not the best with the really flat rth forehand.
The only pair that I would consider to be as closest to Cai/Fu is FHF in prime with ZN full time. Mentally and skill wise they are definitely of a top pair. They could fare quite equally against LYD/YYS, Ahsan/Hendra or Boe/Mo. And shouldn't you take this off topic and minions dominating talk to somewhere else more appropriate?
To bring it back to the thread topic - the only thing that keeps LYD down in the rankings of all-time greats in my opinion is that he lacked that champion mentality. Very similar to LCW - unlike others (LD, FHF/CY to an extent) he doesn't seem to rise to the occasion, but to fall to his level of preparation, or maybe below that. Those nervous errors and letting the shuttle drop in the 2012 OG SF, man, that hurt. And that is not losing to the best pair of the era, but to BoMo, who got smoked in the final by a pair where the back court player could barely sleep the entire week because of his elbow pain (CY said so in an interview after the Olympics, mentioned FHF had to take some pain killers to sleep in that week).... They bounced right back in the Bronze match, but there was no pressure anymore at that point, and they played the mentally weakest pair of the time. Would be interesting to see a statistic on how many matches KKK/TBH lost with less than 15 in the 2nd game, and how often they lost in 3 after winning the first. Must be awful percentages. I cant remember them winning in 3 after losing the 1st at all, although I'm sure they did at some point
Agree, despite his achievements I also never have that feeling that zhang nan is in different league like when I'm watching setiawan, lyd, or cai yun for example. I always rate tony gunawan more of a great all-rounder.
ZN's definitely up there with the greatest of all time in the net with an insane number of gold medals at big events. Him being not flashy with 'out of this world' shots also gives him a highly reliability/less mistakes. I have yet to see ZN being outplayed at the net by anyone at the net so far. It's fancy to see how fast the BMW can go but the sturdy Corolla will be able to go the furthest in the long run.
