question about panhandle grip, seems like two kinds, or perhaps one isn't panhandle?

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by ralphz, Dec 19, 2019.

  1. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    I have thought of panhandle grip as being that grip where the thumb is curled around

    When at the net and doing panhandle grip, ive had the thumb curled round.. rather like the picture posted..

    It's a grip you'd get if you hold the racket out so the racket face is parallel with the floor.. and stick your hand over the handle.. fingers curling around the narrow bevels.

    And I think that's good..for the net at least. When the shuttle is out in front.. As a panhandle grip.. (if one would be correct in calling that panhandle..and I have done.)

    However, I was speaking to somebody who was talking about how when doing a backhand and the shuttle is far behind you , so far behind you that even a bevel grip won't get the racket face pointing towards the court, so he said you'd use a panhandle grip, and fine i've heard that many times.. .. And when they showed the grip there, they had the thumb straight. And indeed I can feel how having the thumb straight there on that narrow bevel, gives some leverage, better than having it curled. There's no question that's the right grip for that scenario. The guy said that is panhandle grip..

    That form of panhandle grip was like a thumb grip but with the thumb on the narrow bevel.

    There is a difference in how the racket handle is oriented in the hand, and in how far the racket is turned..between each of the two grips I described.

    Are there two panhandle grips? one for the net and one for the back? I'm puzzled..

    The one at the back might work at the net.. though the one at the net won't work at the back.
     
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  2. MBHS

    MBHS New Member

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    I use the same panhandling grip at the net for forehand kill shot and the backhand clear or smash. The thumb is on the bevel and not curls around the grip.
     
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  3. Ouchie

    Ouchie Regular Member

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    I think the thumb location is mostly irrelevant. It's purely the orientation of the handle in the hand relative to the palm that makes it a panhandle grip. The widest edge of the handle against the palm. If it's rotated 45 degrees then it is no longer panhandle.

    Yep, it's as simple as this...
    When held like this the racket resembles a ~26cm griddle pan with a ~42cm handle :D A pretty useless griddle pan.
     
  4. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    regarding the thumb, do -you- have the thumb curled or straight when at the net?

    do -you- have it curled, or straight, when taking the shuttle behind you for a backhand clear? (i'm guessing that -you- and anybody, would have it straight.. )

    who said anything about rotating the racket 45 degrees? did something I said suggest anything about rotating the racket 45 degrees? (that's not to say I did or didn't suggest anything about it.. ) but just curious why you mention that. did you read in from what I wrote that I was suggesting something about that?
     
    #4 ralphz, Dec 20, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2019
  5. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Just to be clear, you're referring to thumb on the narrow bevel, for the backhands that are very far behind, right? 'cos if it was the bevel grip thumb on the super narrow inner top diagonal bevel then that wouldn't be termed panhandle at all and the racket wouldn't be turned enough to keep the shuttle in.
     
  6. MBHS

    MBHS New Member

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    Yes I referred to the bevel grip. If I put my thumb just like when I hold the racket with the panhandle grip, my backhand flies in court more often than not. With the bevel grip if I'm a bit late and I don't enough forearm rotation, it flies out or floats up.
     
  7. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Would it be the case that -you- never use panhandle grip for backhand clear and you think the bevel grip is always fine no matter how late you are? even if the shuttle is very very behind you. If that's what you are saying then I think that is very unusual. 'cos from what I understand the proper grip in that scenario is panhandle not bevel grip. But is that the case in your view?

    when you say it flies out do you mean wide? I guess that'd be with any grip, that if your racket head isn't pointing up then hitting it early/late affects whether it goes straight or not. Also the case with a forehand smash if your racket head isn't pointing up..

    Maybe if the shuttle is wide enough then even if it's far back, you can keep it in with a combination of bevel grip and early forearm rotation, and if not so wide then would you still use the bevel grip? or would do you think you'd have to use panhandle?

    I think if it's very far back then you can't take it wide. So how are you going to keep it in with a panhandle grip?
    -
    added correction- from what I understand, when it's that far back that it needs the panhandle grip but thumb on narrow bevel, (not talking bevel grip), then indeed you can't clear it, the shot one would do there is a backhand pull shot which is a fast backhand drop done from the position mentioned with the grip mentioned..
     
    #7 ralphz, Dec 21, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
  8. seanc6441

    seanc6441 Regular Member

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    The only difference for me between backhand clear grip and panhandle forehand net kill grip is not the location of the thumb but the part of the thumb that's contacting the grip and the racket head orientation. With the backhand clear grip my thumb is flush with the 45 bezel. With the pan handle grip my thumb is making contact at the side at a sort of 45 degree angle to this same bezel. This allows me to contact the shuttle directly in front of me with a fairly flat face, pushing from the forearm mostly and not just a wristy shot.

    Of course I make thumb adjustments from the 45 degree bezel up to the flat bezel depending on the angle I'm trying to hit with my net kill or pushing shots. I tend to put my thumb more towards the flat side for flatter pushes because I need to create a flat angle.
     
  9. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Really the question isn't asking about the difference between those two grips. They're different grips. But, just to better understand your panhandle grip, which you use for net play..

    When you say "more towards the flat side".. All the bevels are flat. So I guess you mean towards the narrow bevel. But it's interesting that you don't say on the narrow bevel.. but you speak of a degree between the extremely narrow inner top diagonal bevel and the narrow bevel.

    Are you suggesting that you do something in between bevel grip and panhandle, for net kills, when you want an angle? But then if you wanted an angle the other way would you move your grip on the racket towards the outter diagonal bevel? I think i'd just use the standard panhandle grip with thumb on the narrow bevel, and rotate my arm to get an angle.

    You say
    No question the racket head orientation is different.. but when you say "the part of the thumb that's contacting the grip", is your whole thumb not flush with the narrow bevel when you do panhandle? i.e. is it curled around? (note that either way, surely, the whole thumb is on the grip.. it's not like thumb grip where one has only the tip of the thumb on the grip prior to squeeze)
     
  10. seanc6441

    seanc6441 Regular Member

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    No, because the panhandle grip and the backhand clear grip requires different areas of your thumb to be contacting the grip. With the backhand clear grip you place your thumb flat directly on the grips narrow 45 degrees bevel. With the pan handle grip the thumb is not resting flat on the grip, it's resting at an angle, half way between flat surface of your thumb and the side of your thumb. That's what I meant by the area contacting the grip, it's not the same for both shots, although it's never curled around the grip either but I never said that was the case anyway.

    By flat I meant the 90 degrees 'side' bevel. I couldn't think of a better term with out describing angles but it's the side bevel and not the front/back or 45 degree bevels. I can understand how that might be confusing though!

    I'm talking about micro adjustments, lets say the shuttle comes towards the left shoulder in a fast drives situation, I don't have time to re-position my body or arm much, naturally if you are not gripping your racket too tightly you will make small adjustments in your grip to get the angle needed so you won't be hitting the net on your drives or net kill. Most of my drives are played on the narrow (45 degree) bevel as you call it as that gives you the best use of your forearm, but not all of them. I never found the panhandle grip a particularly rigid style of grip anyway, you always need to make micro adjustments based on the angle and where the shuttle is coming at you from. If you just turn the racket face in your hands slightly when holding a panhandle grip you'll see what I mean, the thumb will be shifting between the two bevels based on the angle of the racket face. I think in rallies we make this adjustment without being conscious of it.
     
    #10 seanc6441, Dec 25, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
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  11. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    If with the panhandle grip, you were to hold your arm out with the racket face flat parallel with the floor, would your thumb be, not parallel with the floor, but pointing down a bit.. So if thumb pointing parallel with the floor is 0 degrees, and thumb pointing at floor is 90 degrees would your thumb be pointing at 30-45 degrees towards the floor? Would the joint of the thumb be at the end of the narrow side bevel and so beyond the joint of the thumb the thumb is not in contact with the grip?
     
  12. seanc6441

    seanc6441 Regular Member

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    Yes to all your questions.

    However instead of my thumb being flat on the bevel like with a backhand clear, for a panhandle shot my thumb is offset at an angle. I'll try show you with a picture:

    From the same orientation this is the difference in thumb position

    Backhand clear grip
    20191225_210414-1308x1746.jpg

    Panhandle grip
    20191225_210321-1308x1746.jpg

    For the panhandle grip there is less surface area of the thumb on the grip as it's not flat with the bevel, it is at a slightly offset angle.
     
  13. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

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    I’ve never seen a pan handle grip shown the way you have it , very interesting
     
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  14. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    EDIT- looks like mason's right
     
    #14 ralphz, Dec 25, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
  15. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    yes thanks that's what I thought(By post #11), thanks for the pictures.. I think I have used the panhandle shown on badmintonbible for years, for panhandle at the net.. which is the main place I use panhandle.. and seems like https://www.badmintonbible.com/shots/grips/basics/panhandle (adjustments aside and maybe I should try adjustments to get angles..)

    Now suppose the shuttle is high at the back so you are very late to the shuttle, so/i.e., the shuttle isn't wide

    There are some posts that mention a panhandle for it see https://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/index.php?threads/late-backhands.61198/ post #5 by viver , and https://www.badmintoncentral.com/fo.../can-i-use-the-same-grip-for-all-shots.93252/ post #8 by thejym says "I have been taught by different coaches to use either the bevel grip or the panhandle for backhand clears."

    i'm wondering whether panhandle in that instance(late backhand overhead from rear court, shuttle not wide), done with panhandle grip, the thumb would perhaps be straight rather than angled? (If the shuttle were wider so you weren't taking it as late then bevel grip could be used)

    added- no idea why thejyn says about panhandle for backhand clear, I agree with Gollum in the 61198 thread post #2, a backhand clear from there isn't really an option and would be miraculous.
     
    #15 ralphz, Dec 25, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
  16. seanc6441

    seanc6441 Regular Member

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    I understand vivers point as the panhandle in that situation does allow slightly more wrist pronation than having the thumb fully on the bevel. But it's a bit less accurate/controlled from my experience so if you can manage to use the backhand grip it's better but if not and you use the panhadle grip but in a reverse motion (almost scooping the shuttle back in the direct it came) then it's better than nothing.

    I think a late shot also assumes that you are taking the shot low (maybe around chest height or lower) so that's why the reverse scoop panhandle type shot is one of the better (or only!) options in that situation.

    As for shot choice, the best option to play in that situation is a fast drive/drop down the line. Ideally with enough quality and whippy pace to not allow the opponent to play a tight net shot or net kill. You don't have many options in that situation. Failing that you play a slower tighter drop to the net and hope your opponent doesn't get there quickly for a net kill or net shot winner.

    I think in that situation it is more important that your shot is low enough over the net to avoid a kill shot than where the shot lands on their side of the court lenght wise. Then you must rely on some super fast footwork to get you out of trouble for the next shot haha!
     
    #16 seanc6441, Dec 25, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
  17. seanc6441

    seanc6441 Regular Member

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    Pretty sure this is the standard panhandle technique.

    Check the video link posted by @ralphz showing the correct panhandle technique, it's pretty much the same as I'm showing in the picture only at a better angle to demonstrate what it looks like.
     
  18. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    We agree bevel grip would be preferable where possible with overhead backhand but sometimes it's not possible.. And i'm talking about that situation.

    And I agree that for the late backhand overhead clear and with panhandle grip, it'd probably have to be taken lower.

    my question to you though is would you still even there have your thumb at an angle and only in partial contact.(like panhandle at the net)

    or you amend the panhandle grip at the rear for the late overhead backhand, panhandle but with your thumb along the narrow bevel?

    I think it seems like there's more controlled forearm rotation with the thumb straight along the narrow bevel, than with the thumb at an angle.
     
  19. seanc6441

    seanc6441 Regular Member

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    I would never play a backhand clear or backhand drive with a panhandle grip, you need the thumb directly on the bevel to get the power for a clear and if the thumb is on the bevel its a backhand grip not a panhandle grip.

    I'd use the panhandle grip only for a slower half court push or drop shot taken from a low position.

    Assuming I can take the shuttle low and swipe horizontally (wide of my body slightly) I might use a forehand grip (so with the thumb just resting against the largest bevel). Because that gives you pretty much 100% wrist pronation and allows you to grip the racket a bit tighter and use more whip to get the shuttle back with interest. Therefore you can play a proper whippy drive rather than a more slow and loopy drop or push to the mid court.

    But as you can deduce, the angle you are taking the shuttle at will determine your grip here, whether it be backhand, panhandle or forehand style grips its literally dependant on which is the most confortable given the racket face position needed to play a shot down the line.

    Whichever grip offers the least resistance to your wrist movement is the best grip to use in that situation. Because from that position the shot you need is a scooped shot or a whippy shot depending on the pace you can generate from that angle. It's very wristy.
     
    #19 seanc6441, Dec 25, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019
  20. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    The term "backhand grip" is a bit ambiguous. 'cos a thumb grip is often thought of as backhand grip, and you don't mean that.

    When the thumb is on the top inner thin bevel, it tends to be called "bevel grip". That could be viewed as "a backhand grip". But as mentioned i'm not talking about the thumb being there.

    A badminton racket has 8 bevels.

    You say "if the thumb is on the bevel" There are 8 of them. So it's not really clear what you mean when you say "the bevel". And as mentioned i'm not talking about bevel grip / i'm not talking about teh thumb on that top inner bevel.

    When the thumb is on the top inner diagonal bevel, that is known as "the bevel grip", but i'm not talking about that.

    I'm talking about the thumb straight along the narrow bevel. (there are the two wide bevels, and the 2 narrow bevels, and the 4 diagonal extra narrow bevels).

    If you try putting your thumb on there do you see what I mean by it seems like you can get good control with forearm rotation?
     
    #20 ralphz, Dec 25, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2019

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