Yonex Mavis 300 or 350?

Discussion in 'Shuttlecock' started by eddiemon, Jun 21, 2008.

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  1. ph_leung

    ph_leung Regular Member

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    You mean pros playing a tournament with plastics and feather? Or...

    IMHO if a player were trained exclusively with feathers were compared to a player exclusive to plastics, the feather trained should have an advantage.

    Given enough warm-up rallies, the feather player should be able to adapt to the less dramatic drop-off in speed and one less "weapon" of brushes/spin-type/tumble shots. The nylon player would need to learn these more subtle shots but these can't be learned within a few rallies. The feather player can easily adapt to the power/slam shots often used by nylon players within warm-up. The feather player with have the upper hand.

    That said, the group I play with use Mavis 300 over 98% of the time. Plastics are significantly cheaper to use when the group has a mix of advanced to novice players who may kill feathers well within one game just by grabbing the bird wrong. However, this doesn't mean the players in our group will be lost playing feather or dislike playing with them.
     
  2. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    that is a theory, your theory base on your hunch. I say you're wrong. If 2 players trained equally in one kind of plastic and feather shuttle, the plastic player will have the upper hand. I dont even need to go into detail, just look at this thread for tangible proof, see how much feather players hated playing plastic. Why? they can't stand it because they can't control it nor willing or can they adapt to it. Playing feather is alot easier, that is why majority of players prefer them. Just like majority drivers prefer automatic transmission over manual even tho manual cars are cheaper.
    U even contradicted your theory in your last sentence
     
    #82 cooler, Jul 7, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2008
  3. Pete LSD

    Pete LSD Regular Member

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    The thing about plastic is that it is a two-way sword. One side smashes real hard and other side can't retrieve it. Now, the other side smashes real hard and the side can't retrieve it. A collapsed skirt produces an unpredictable and irretrievable trajectory - not really fun IMO.
     
  4. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    ph_leung, u see? A plastic player who is more use to very fast and unpredictable shuttle rebound and trajectory will and can adapt to feather playing very easily.
     
  5. bdbc74

    bdbc74 Regular Member

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    Well, what cooler say come close, to what i think sometime about a snobbish attitude towards plastics.
    A trainer of mine was sometimes very upset because he couldnt get back this fast smashes, even if his trainees were just decent beginners:D. On the other side this beginners were used to the plastics, is not really the speed the problem then a different timing.

    I have seen this situation in a sport-center where the people, quite fit hobby-players use just plastics. A couple of times, a club player(used just to feathers) play against a good hobby player(used just to plastics) with plastic:D:D:D
    The result was that sometime the just-feather-guy couldnt cope really well with the situation, and he get frustrated because he has such problems with an "amateur" with poor technique but very sharp reflexes and speed.

    Of course the speed of the smashes is a problem, you have often short rallys.
    But then one can use the green yonex (350 or others), they are slower than a yones as30 in speed 3, or slower than a victor champion in 77.

    The better players dont play usually with plastics because they have to adapt for tournaments or league-games where they have to play with feather. (i think you have to play tournaments when you want to become better:-0)

    I think that a lot of people that are so strong against plastics dont have really the experience of playing with plastics for a longer time in really competitive situations and because of that i dont think that they really know so much about plastics:):):).
     
    #85 bdbc74, Jul 7, 2008
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  6. Pete LSD

    Pete LSD Regular Member

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    Actually, I played with plastic from 1988 to 2000 and represented my high school team. It's more than the raw speed and unpredictable nature that turns me away from plastic. Net shots just can't compare to feather.

     
    #86 Pete LSD, Jul 7, 2008
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  7. bdbc74

    bdbc74 Regular Member

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    Speed: ok, one have to take slower ones!!! (And yes, a problem is that you cant tip the plastics to make them slower or faster).

    Unpredictable nature? I dont know... why is that?

    Net shots are really the downside, but not that is not possible to play sharp net shots with plastics, the problem is, in my opinion, that plastics dont tumble really good.
     
  8. bdbc74

    bdbc74 Regular Member

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    The problem with the raw speed is on the other side for a lot of beginner or hobby players a fascinating thing!
    That badminton is so awesome cool for a lot of hobby or recreational people is simply because is such a fast sport! And because you can smash soooo hard:D:D:D (you dont get that speed in soccer or handball or tennis)

    For the more advanced players there are other aspects more important, but raw speed can be nice to:D
     
    #88 bdbc74, Jul 7, 2008
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  9. Pete LSD

    Pete LSD Regular Member

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    A collapsed skirt results in very unstable flight. The nylon bird can zigzag or corkscrew its way to the other side of the court.

     
  10. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Let us put this in perspective. There are just no players who play plastics exclusively who are considered world rank players. The best plastic players come only from the US and Cooler's Land. Plastics are considered quite respectable in the US and Canada, but looked down in Asia where many players have never even seen a plastic shuttle let alone play with one.
    The US was considered one of the best badminton countries in the 1950s and that was when they all played exclusively with top grade feathers and plastics were not born. Now with their love for plastics American and Canadian badminton have somewhat slipped down the world ranking. Even the top American and Canadian players play with feathers. I have a feeling the decline in standard in the US and Canada may be due to spending the formative years in plastics and then finding it a bit too late to switch to feathers when they do improve to tournament play level.
     
  11. Pete LSD

    Pete LSD Regular Member

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    That's not true at all :p:p:p. 100% of the folks at my club play with feather. SGVBC dudes play with feathers . . . and so do the good folks at GGBC and Bintang. Come on now, Eepak. Take a trip to the west coast of North America ;).

    The standard of top US and Canadian players have more to do with funding than feather shuttles. There is no money in this sport.

     
  12. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    ................................................
     
  13. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    it's all relative;)
    currently i can't do hairpin cross court net shot with feather as easily or as tight as plastic. Why? 2 reasons:
    1. i got use to the feel of plastic and can control it. I play 80% feather and 20% plastic but i have hit more tape shot and rolling over with plastic than feather shuttles.

    2. and i have the reason why. Plastic degrade much slower therefore more consistent flight profile throughout the game - hence i can get more consistent results. With feather, the shuttle degrade too fast that i lost confident in making consistent tight net variety of shots because i can't predict the condition of the feather shuttle at that moment. Smash and clearing is ok since it is not precision demanding as finesse net shots. Of course, at high level, u can change feather shuttle more often, like every rally. which in semi competitive to recreational situation cannot.

    New feather shuttles also feel different to me between brands and grades. New Mavis 300, feel the same all the time. When I play with eggroll he often donate AS50 :D and the confident i have in making AS50 to do what i want is a lot higher than say best victor (green) or any available top grades. It also last longer which mean i have confident of the shuttle longer.
     
    #93 cooler, Jul 7, 2008
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  14. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Playing with both feathers and plastics is the worse thing a player can do. The route is simple. It is either from feathers to better feathers. For our North America friends, the better players like those you find on the West Coast of the US, it is from feathers to better feathers, and for others who come from areas with lower skill players it is from plastics to feathers.
    But, never have I heard of a case where you progress to both plastics and feathers at the same time. This will kill the great joy of badminton as it should be played. The two do not mix.
    The following differences are so staggeringly huge to suggest that mixing the two is like hitting a dead end.
    1. Feathers are more rigid-they do not collapse-and have faster speed of rotation through the air at different velocities.
    2. Feathers have faster initial speed off the racquet face.
    3. Feathers give you that million dollars sound and feel of the shuttle when hit that plastics lack.
    4. Feathers allow tumble characteristics of the shuttle when a soft net shot is played that plastics cannot.
    5. Plastic skirts are much less rigid than feathers, and this results in the cork or nose of the shuttle leaving the racquet face pointing downwards instead of upwards. How ridiculous!
    6. The rigidity of feathers give an immediate bounce response and hence a fast tunble speed.
    7. The crispness and solid impact noise of feathers are rewarding-like a million dollars feeling-to players and gives important feedback as to where it has been struck on the racquet and the technique of the hitting action.
     
  15. Oldhand

    Oldhand Moderator

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    The wide-ranging research carried out by Dr Alison J Cooke doesn't quite agree with a few of the points you've just made.

    She did find significant differences... but not in such markedly disparate form.

    One of her painstakingly researched reports is here :)

    Allthesame, I'd wholeheartedly agree that, compared to the feather birdie, synthetic shuttlecocks are terrible :D
     
  16. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    it is getting boring to read about feather shuttle characteristic repeatedly, especially within the same post. I think everyone here in BF know those difference between feather and plastic. U make it sound like people playing plastic are dumb. I've seen E,D,C level players hacking and chopping feather shuttles, are they smarter and possess better stroke than B players playing plastic? Funny how u ignore plastic's good quality, like consistency and durability.
     
  17. emba33

    emba33 Regular Member

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    I'm not sure that it matters whether plastic or feather birds are better. I've heard that BETA was better than VHS ... and VHS became the North American standard in video tape regardless of which technology was superior.

    In town, most recreational players play with plastics. It doesn't make sense for me to pull out feather (although some people do). It is the standard for recreational play. If players are serious about the sport, they play with real feather birds. It's the standard for world class tournaments. It's doesn't make any sense to play with plastics for players who need to use feathers.

    For me ... cost does not figure into the equation. Badminton is still a fun sport regardless of the shuttle choice. Recreational players also have a tendancy to have more "mis-hits" on the bird, which can more rapidly damage the normal flight of a feather bird. The price of feather and plastics is almost the same (roughly $20 each per tube) -- but the durability is the big issue).

    With badminton being dropped from the Olympics in 2012, the badminton community should be working to encourage unity ... building the sport for young people ... to keep the sport strong. In the long run, the elitism which exists (at least in Canada) in badminton is killing the sport off.

    - Emba33
     
  18. silentheart

    silentheart Regular Member

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    Yes, synthetic feel different than the organic shuttle. Same for boobs too. It is just depend on personal preference.
    Yes, plastic and feather shuttle flight and bounce differently. You just have to adjust your tactic and style to when use different kind. Pros can adopt to the new shuttle with few month of practice.
    Yes, plastic is a not a good substitute of the feather shuttle. However, feather shuttle has cost and consistency issues too.
    Yes, there are plastic shuttles in R&D that behave close enough to feather shuttle, how much will you pay for it?
    Please! the cost determine what kind of shuttle we use. The profit determine what kind of shuttle manufactures produce. If there is a day that bird flu killed all duck and geese in China in 1 month, let's see what kind of shuttle you play and manufactures will make and improve.
    Can we just start another thread to discuss the pros and cons of the 2?
     
  19. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    yep, the no. 1 factor is ... money. Detroit big 3 keep making suv and trucks until recently because it's good money. Same as oil, the supply of feather shuttles are just keeping up demand. If bird flu wipe out only 25% of feather supply, watch the feather shuttle price goes up big time, more than 25% for sure. Who doesn't like driving a big honking loaded SUV or a corvette Z06, u feel like a million buck ( borrowed from taneepak). Look at now, plastic loaded subcompact and moped are in vogue. Are these new buyers dumb and don't appreciate million buck feeling and safety of a 3 tons suv?
     
    #99 cooler, Jul 8, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2008
  20. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    same con and pro of christmas trees, organic versus plastic
    I have added my analogy in parenthesis:p
    -----------------------

    December 21, 2006

    DOW JONES REPRINTS

    The Fight Before Christmas:
    Real Trees vs. Fakes
    Farmers Tout Green Appeal
    To Persuade Consumers
    To Reject Faux Firs This Year
    By SARA SCHAEFER MUÑOZ
    December 21, 2006

    For years, consumers tired of schlepping to tree farms and vacuuming up pine needles (feather bits) have turned to artificial Christmas trees(plastic shuttles). Now, growers and suppliers of real Christmas trees are battling back, and the fight is getting nasty.(like here :p)

    The Web site of the National Christmas Tree Association (feather proponents) refers to some fake trees as "big green toilet bowl brushes." The group has also started distributing an online game called "Attack of the Mutant Artificial Trees," where kids can vaporize garishly colored conifers by pelting them with virtual snowballs.

    Name-calling aside, the real-tree industry's main tactic is to tap into consumers concern for the environment. Environmental experts generally agree that real trees are the more earth-friendly choice since wood is a renewable resource, and trees provide oxygen and help reduce carbon dioxide -- a contributor to global warming. Artificial trees are usually made with petroleum.

    "Buy a Real Tree So We Can Keep Making More Oxygen for You," proclaim new signs posted this year around Sunrise Tree Farm, in Kings Valley, Ore. Tags attached for the first time to trees this year at Yule Tree Farms in Aurora, Ore., tell customers the business is dedicated to "sustainable agriculture practices." One new ad for Aldrich Tree Farm in Belmond, Iowa, says: "Fake Trees Can Do More Harm than City Fellers on a Farm."

    The moves by the real-tree industry follow years of growing sales of artificial trees. Advances in artificial-tree design have made them more appealing to many consumers: Some fake trees are more realistic-looking while others come in funky colors and have wacky features. One latest offering from the Web site christmastreeforme.com1, for example, has a transparent plastic trunk filled with colored bubbles. Another, the black Christmas tree, was one of the site's most popular products this year, says owner Bill Quinn, and was sold out by early December.

    Some consumers are literally branching out and buying two, three or even more trees for their homes. Sara Schaefer Muñoz looks at the trend.

    Many consumers also see faux trees -- which last for years, don't need to be watered (no steaming) and can come dressed with lights -- as more convenient. While more people still opt for real over artificial, sales of fake trees have been climbing in recent years. Approximately 9.3 million American households purchased an artificial tree in 2005, up 27% from 2001, according to surveys by the National Christmas Tree Association, an industry group in Chesterfield, Mo. Meanwhile, 32.8 million households bought a natural tree in 2005, up just 18% in the period.

    Many of those artificial trees are imports: according to the U.S. Census Bureau, 9.6 million plastic trees were imported last year, up from 8.8 million the year before.

    Stephanie Doerr, of Jacksonville, Fla., said her black faux Christmas tree allowed her to be more creative with her decorating. She put the tree in her black-and-red dining room, she said, and covered it with pearly red-and-white lights and Asian-themed ornaments, such as tiny pagodas. "You could do it with a green tree," she said, "but when you put lights on a different-color tree, you get a different effect."

    Still, the message of the real tree industry is leading some former faux-loving families to make the switch back to the real thing. Several years ago, Brian and Sallie Hirst of Boonville, Mo., bought an artificial tree because it was easy to set up and didn't require any watering. This year, they decided to switch back to a real tree because they missed the pine smell (the million $ feel) and the fun of an outing to a nearby tree farm (the fun of trying various brand and grades of feather shuttles). Mr. Hirst, an insurance agent, also said environmental reasons played a role. "It's a natural organic compound that will enrich the soil when it decays. Plastic doesn't do that," he says.

    Environmental experts (cooler :p), however, say there is a downside to real trees: After real trees are discarded, they will emit carbon dioxide when they burn or decay. (also, real trees consume fertilizer, pesticide, machinery to harvest and process them every year, all required petroleum, )

    Some tree farmers are encouraging the sale of more than one tree per family and have even gone from referring to "cutting a tree" to "harvesting a tree" as a way to emphasize that trees are a renewable resource. (Plastic can be recycle if manufacturer wanted to)

    Becky Rasmussen, a communications specialist with the industry association, says the group is trying to battle the perception among some people that they are robbing the forest if they buy a real tree. Instead, she says, trees (geese and ducks) are grown on farms like crops. "When you cut corn people don't say you are killing the corn plant," she says. "It's the same thing with trees."

    Other retailers are selling trees people can plant when Christmas is over (like practice shuttles). Garth Herring, president of www.noblefir.com3, started offering potted trees for the first time this year, as did Yule Tree Farms, which began selling the three-foot to four-foot potted trees(duck and chicken feather shuttles lol) on its Internet retail site, oregonsnoblevintage.com4, for $80, including delivery.

    The latest tree farm advertising efforts are part of a broader campaign by the National Christmas Tree Association that was expanded in 2004 to combat declining sales. Among its other efforts: convincing people well-watered trees (wells steamed feather will last very long) are less flammable then fakes. The association posted pictures of singed artificial trees and sent a video to news outlets showing a firefighter trying unsuccessfully to torch a real one. A "fake tree" section on the industry's Web site says artificial ones were invented by a toilet brush company and "the first fake Christmas trees were really just big green toilet bowl brushes."(plastic bashing and scare mongering, plastic can be made with fire retardant material)

    The industry association is also playing up the American-made angle, pointing out that most artificial trees are manufactured in China, while the U.S. tree industry creates more than 100,000 U.S. jobs.(feather busness support lots of jobs too)

    Organic tree farms are also cropping up around the country, capturing the interest of more eco-conscious consumers. One is Chestnut Charlie's in Lawrence, Kan., where owner Charles NovoGradac says he sells about 100 to 150 trees a year. He says most customers are local people who just want a fresh tree, but some "specifically want organic."

    Meanwhile, the artificial tree industry is ramping up its offerings. This year, new retailer Balsam Hill offers 16 models of trees, some with branches that are molded from real trees and subtle color variations so the needles look and feel real. The company's Vermont White Spruce starts at $279. The 12-feet-tall version with lights, which goes for $2,300, was sold out Dec. 10.(when are we getting the high tech $5 carbon fiber shuttle?)

    High-end retailer Frontgate also redesigned its Noble Fir this year to create a more lifelike tree. Online retailer treeclassics.com5 this year added three new models made from polyethylene, which gives the branches a more natural look. In addition, the company stocked slimmer trees, which are about 43 inches wide, compared with 58 to 68 inches for a standard tree. They appeal to some consumers because they take up less space and are easier to set up, says company owner Leon Gamze. Older people "don't want the hassle. They just want something that says Christmas," Mr. Gamze says.

    Ellen and Jim Cochran were tired of spending each December searching for a tree with the right shape (tipping feather shuttles before game) and then painstakingly (testing the shuttles) putting up the lights. This year, they decided to spend more than $800 on a high-end imitation Noble Fir instead. "To look at it from a distance, you wouldn't know it was fake," says Ms. Cochran, an administrative worker in Huntsville, Ala.

    Despite the variety of designs and easier maintenance of artificial trees, many consumers still opt for the real thing. "It's more Christmassy than pulling something out of a box," says Troy Lenger, a truck operator who was recently buying a tree at Starr Pines Christmas Tree Farm in Boonville, Mo. "It probably takes just as much time to water than to read the instructions of how to put together a fake one."

    (Although plastic trees may cost more, the convenient of it more than make up for the cost. convenience=time saved=money saved. Durabiltiy=money saved)
     
    #100 cooler, Jul 8, 2008
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2008
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