11 x 5 scoring format proposal

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by CLELY, Apr 20, 2020.

  1. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

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    Has anybody of those saying that 21*3 is better than 11*5 ever watched 11*5 matches?

    I have. I really was skeptical, but it is fun to watch. Players are forced to be focused from the beginning, because every rally is important to win a game. Very one sided matches will be shortened significantly while the number of points played in even matchups will be less, but not that much less, so what does it change, really? We get the same break after each game instead of two different breaks at the interval and after the game. It's still the same amount of points players have to play before getting to the interval/end of game.
    Iirc, this will likely come along with another change that coaching between rallies is not allowed anymore. This is supposed to shorten the break between rallies and I do not see how that can be good for attacking players with a more intense game requiring longer rest before they're able to get that intensity on court again. I do not see the rallies changing too much, really. The stress on the players is quite similar to what it is now, so what's the reasoning behind those statements.

    I have not played a 11*5 match yet, but I'm curious to try it now. I have watched it and I didn't like it any less than what it is now, despite being very skeptical due to some bad experience with the 7 point games a long time ago.

    Change is not always bad and if it helps to get badminton to the media, then this (not all that big of a) change is worth it, in my opinion.
     
    #21 speCulatius, Apr 29, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
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  2. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    What happens at 10-10?
     
  3. Ouchie

    Ouchie Regular Member

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    I suspect that space time will not collapse on itself and the universe is not reset.
    Probably 2 clear points, or first to an arbitrary score.

    Just checking the rules...
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. LD rules!

    LD rules! Regular Member

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    Firstly, I cannot believe we are having this conversation about changing the scoring system again...

    As someone who has actually played the 11x5 scoring system during the previous BWF test. I really did not enjoy it too much. Personally, I do not feel a match at that level (or any level) should potentially be decided by someone getting a run of cheap points. I feel that if you are 17-13 down under the 21 point system, it is psychologically easier to come back from that, than it is to come back from 7-3 down. My reasoning for that being that it becomes more about mental strength and concentration as opposed to physical capability and quality.

    Maybe there is a middle ground, but personally, this has always felt to me like change for the sake of change. The players and NA have voted already and refused the change. There has not been enough time elapsed since the last vote to demand we look into this again.

    Removing the physicality from the game will only prove to be detrimental IMO.
     
  5. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

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    BWF is not looking for a change that would firstly be beneficial for the players or the game itself in general. They are looking for more TV exposure. More sponsors.
     
  6. LD rules!

    LD rules! Regular Member

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    Sure, I do not see more sponsors getting on board with a shorter game though.
     
  7. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

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    Let's try to see how your can read it...
    hoping that this leads to...
    I hope you didn't mind... the money doesn't necessarily have to come from (more) sponsors.
     
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  8. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

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    @speCulatius May be sponsors would be more a secondary effect. Isn't more TV time or tv exposure through more popular channels will also lead to more sponsor? Bigger one?
     
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  9. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

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    I was actually thinking if badminton get more TV exposure, more sponsors would come along.
     
  10. Quentin11

    Quentin11 Regular Member

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    The thing is that it is best of 5, i.e. you win the first 3 and the match is over. Yes the matches will be more fun I agree, we've seen the shorter matches of the league games and they are fun. But to me that's all they are 'Fun' and not serious!

    The rallies will definitely change since they will all look to finish the match as quickly as possible so that they don't have to play the 4th game or 5th game. Explosive and power players will have the advantage over the patient ones. Obviously the players will adapt but it will change the nature of the game over time.

    These are professionally trained individuals and all of them will be focusing on getting more energy to win fast. And in a tournament they will also want to spend as less time as possible on court. So they will try to win in 3 which may result in shorter matches.

    21 points is the right balance for badminton. We can see explosive styles and we can see patient styles. And especially a mix of both, the Final between Ginting and Momota at World Tour Finals - where we enjoyed Ginting explosiveness at the start of the game and then to enjoy Momota's patient strategy at the end.
     
  11. Sumanth99

    Sumanth99 Regular Member

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    Ginting will have most advantage if this gets implemented, but other players will also work on their attack and standard of defence will also improve to next level.
     
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  12. tjiew

    tjiew Regular Member

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    You guys can go watch Malaysia Badminton Purple League few years ago. They used 11x5 systems. Very fast games but does it make match more interesting than current? For me personally no, I am old school badminton maniac who like to see beautiful games(not necessarily fast).

    Sent from my CLT-L29 using Tapatalk
     
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  13. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

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    Funny, that's what people said about the scoring with every rally, not only when serving.... yet we can take a look at the world rankings and there's exactly one attacking player in the top 5. You're making the assumtion that the risk for attacking players stays the same, but it's not. Every single point is more valuable, so the risk of attacking players is increased, too. It's not only that every point you win is more valuable, but every mistake you make hurts you more as well.
    Same thing they're doing now. They're trying to win in 2 and not 3 games. And sorry to say that, but how do they not deserve it if it works? Two thoughts on that

    1. What's easier for your mind, winning the second game when starting at 0:0 after having a bad start and losing the first one 11:0 or winning a game to 21 when trailing 11:1? Don't say this is not realistic, everything we are talking about is not hypothetical at this point.

    2. When top players can actually use this to be more efficient in earlier rounds, doesn't that increase the quality in the final rounds of a tournament? Going from there, you could argue that is might actually increase the quality of play across tournaments.

    The thought that this new scoring idea favors attacking players relies on two assumptions. That the reward is increased, but the risk doesn't and that's just not true. And that everything else stays the same. Well, I do not find anything on that at the moment, but...
    This would actually be in the favor of players with a more steady load on the body.

    Another thought: If it really does favor the attack, who says you have to give away the attack? Playing neutral and not really giving your opponent the chance to attack is what players are doing now and it works. What would chang about that?
    I've just heard that too many times about too different things to take that seriously.

    Again, I'm not saying that any of the two is better. I do not know. I don't see how anybody actually can know that right now.
    I get that reasoning, but just look at football (the kind actually played with your feet and a ball) and the TV money they get from just selling the rights to broadcast matches... Indirectly that money comes from commercials again, but it's not a direct sponsor. I just tried to broaden the picture with the focus on what it is about as that's the money, no matter where it comes from.
    source

    Let me know if you find any other research on it.
     
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  14. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

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    Well I actually now think it could be fun at club level... I thought about it for the last 24 hours and at my 2 clubs only 4 players (including me) regularly play singles. Other players will always say they will be too tired or it's too long a match for them to handle in singles. May be playing 11x3 (x5 max) would incite more players to try singles games. And a lot of time at the end of a 3hour sessions we do reduce games to 11 points to make it shorter. May be it's worth a try. (Amateur point of view here, not pro tour)
     
  15. Quentin11

    Quentin11 Regular Member

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    @speCulatius

    In fact i've made some simulations while trying to answer you to show you the effects of 5 x 11. But I proved myself wrong after doing the second simulation.

    1st simulation was explosive player vs patient player (at this point i'm super confident)

    2nd simulation was explosive player vs explosive (i started to realise there would be a higher chance the match goes to 5th game)

    3rd simulation was patient player vs patient player (i realised that while having the effect of wanting to win in 3 games + having the obligation to try to keep with attacking players - the match would still have a high chance to go to 5th game)

    I then concluded that with time, once the players have properly settled in the format, the effects will pan out and all we will be left is a slightly shorter match, i.e. by 9 winning points or by 8 winning points. But a few matches will have the potential to be longer by 2 winning points.

    So all good for me ... badminton will still be awesome. Sorry for not thinking it through. Maybe they should be 7 x 11 but best of 5 when awesome players are playing xD so we enjoy more!
     
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  16. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    Can someone please dig out the endless threads that have been building up during the previous attempt to push the 5x11 scoring system through? All the things said in there still apply today, so that would save a lot of time for all of us going through the same discussions again.

    Personally, I’m open for a change - both on professional and recreational level. One sided games will be over faster whereas close matches will be equally or even a tad more exciting. And maybe it will get more hobby players back into playing singles - I know many of them who are playing doubles only because they lack the physical abilities to push through a full 3x21 singles match.
     
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  17. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    I am not playing singles even with 1 x 21 game. :(

    In HK and China, a lot of the junior competitions are only 1 game to 21. Some of the adult ones too. That's pretty tense. Three games 11 points would be good.

    I would like to know how many additional points there are at 10-10. Up to 15 per game for this new proposal?
     
  18. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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  19. Quentin11

    Quentin11 Regular Member

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    Personally, I will have trouble with 5x11 because I always take time to settle in a game even in the second game. Most of my matches I end up playing catch up.

    5x11 for me will be really challenging just because of my slow start. I like the comfort of knowing 21 points need to be scored for it to end and I just play what I can during this time. I'm usually 5-8 points down whenever I start a game. I can't shake the slow start.

    Sometimes coaches will make me play up to 7 points. I always lose! Even to players I beat comfortably to 21 points.

    But the pros will have no issue getting used to it. So all for new points system.

    I just miss badminton. Just hitting some clears would do so much good. 1.5 month already and curfew still going up to June. I don't even know if in June gyms will be opened. :(
     
  20. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    In terms of points needed for a full match (no setting), it’s only 8 points difference to 3 x 21 so I don’t see much difference.

    No doubt the pros will protest but they almost always protest at any change. Look at the service rule height for example.


    time to push yourself out of the comfort zone. I teach my kid going down that much means you can’t chase back at the end of the game. The player needs to adapt, find the reasons and train accordingly.
     

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