Bad Line Calls

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by Michael Jensen, Nov 19, 2008.

  1. Woody

    Woody Regular Member

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    There is nothing in the way of a written book as far as I am aware.

    In England we do have a system whereby newcomers are encouraged and we offer a training scheme but the syllabus comes from experienced line judges not what is written down formally.
     
  2. Erik L.

    Erik L. Regular Member

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    Michael could have a point, but on the other hand I am quite convinced this only applies to a very small number of line judges, most line judge know very well or will be very quick to fiond out how to look at a shuttle approaching the line.
     
  3. Michael Jensen

    Michael Jensen Regular Member

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    I hope your'e right when refering to international line judges. I myself have been functioning as a line judge at a lover level, mostly in youth tournaments. Nobody has ever told me how to do it. I have "learned" it by watching as have all the other line judges at this level. We are recruited among badmintonplayers or parents to youth players. I can se that we are not all following the same standard. Whenever I ask somebody about how they make linecalls they will claim it to be no problem, but they will often define it differently. I think someone should write that book pinpointing exactly what the rules states and describing wellknown difficulties supported by pictures. Maybe someday I'll do it myself.
     
  4. Woody

    Woody Regular Member

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    Michael,

    Good for you that you are out there learning your trade.

    As you say most people who perform the role are recruited locally and receive little if any training.

    As regards the rules, there are none written other than if a shuttle lands on a line it is in. Nowhere is it defined what part of the shuttle has to touch the line. It is not like football where all of the ball has to cross the goal line for it to be a goal.

    When a shuttle is being struck at 300kph a line judge has to make a decision and 99% of the time their first instinct is correct.

    Unless you are on the line for top competitions then you are unlikely to get experience of shuttles being struck at thos sort of speeds but you do get used to it I can assure you.

    Do you get the opportunity to do the league matchs in Denmark? If you want the opportunity to be involved with the Danish Line Judges Group with whom I work send me a pm and I will give you their contact details.

    Basically the only way to learn is by actually sitting on the lines.
     
  5. Foppa17

    Foppa17 Regular Member

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    I'd call that out.
     
  6. Michael Jensen

    Michael Jensen Regular Member

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    I interprete the laws of badminton like this: &13.3.1 states: It is a fault if in play the shuttle lands outside the boundaries of the court. &15.2 states that the shuttle is out of play when it hits the surface of the court or when a fault has occurred. Thus anything that happens after the first contact whith the floor inside or outside the court should be disregarded. What counts is the first point of contact. I believe we aggree on that.
    As to learning by doing: When I several years ago started my training as a surgeon this method was widely accepted. We all learned to operate and all thought, we did it right. But our methods would often differ. To day operations are widely standardized down to the smallest detailes which have improved results. I know I am perseverring, but I really think I have a point. What could be argued against a written instruction on how to make correct linecalls?
     
  7. Foppa17

    Foppa17 Regular Member

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    Oh and you mean in competitive games and opposed to a club night right? I've given up on people making fair calls on club night. If it's remotely close, it's just not gonna go in your favour... I don't even aim within a foot of the lines anymore
     
  8. Michael Jensen

    Michael Jensen Regular Member

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    That is not my experience since we play by: when in doubt, don't call it out. On the other hand some players do not recognise how difficult it sometimes is to se if your own ball was out since the actual point of contact ( the bottom) will be covered by the feathers when you se it from your position. This leads some players to claim their shot to be in, though it isn't. Of cause there will allways be some wrong linecalls when you are playing whithout line judges, but allso in this scenario it is important, that the players know the exact rules, and many don't.
     
  9. Woody

    Woody Regular Member

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    Michael

    I am not disagreeing with you however I think you are thinking far to deeply.

    A shuttle is either in or it is out. If it strikes any part of the line it is in end of story.

    There is nothing further to be written by way of rules about the matter other than the below as you have previously written.

    13.3.1 states: It is a fault if in play the shuttle lands outside the boundaries of the court.
     
  10. Michael Jensen

    Michael Jensen Regular Member

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    "If it strikes any part of the line it is in end of story."
    But then a shuttle bouncing back or a shuttle tilting over and touching the line should be called in, and I am shure you wouldn't. I believe in discrimminating by definition instead of by authority ( it's out because I say so ). If we all could agree on the definition you stated earlier ( first point of contact ) then I believe that a lot of the kind of frustration that Foppa 17 expressed could be, if not eliminated, then minimized.
    What started my interrrest in linecalls was my observations years ago in U11 tournaments of grown ups ( parents, trainers ) acusing some of these very young and inexperienced players of cheating totally disregarding the fact, that children of that age simply can not be expected to have develloped the kind of brain function neaded for making correct linecalls. At the same time I observed, that the grown ups complaining were often sitting far away from the court still claiming to be able to se, if the ball was in or out. My conclusion then was, and still is, that someone should do some thinking arround this, which I am trying to do. I hope someone could write an instuction on linecalls just like the ones you have on badminton technic and tactic. This would make discussions on linecalls more quallified.
     
  11. Oldhand

    Oldhand Moderator

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    I don't know where you are going with this... but this doesn't sound like one of those challenging procedures that require a padded, official manual.

    Indeed, it might help to work on just the basic issue.

    A line-judge is required to do just one thing - call the shuttle IN or OUT.
    (It helps, of course, when such duties are rendered with sporting honesty :p)

    For the LJ, the moment of truth is that of the shuttle touching the floor.
    What matters is where it touched down.

    Of little merit to the issue are questions like 'which part touched the floor first' and 'didn't the feathers touch the line' and 'did it bounce, slide, careen, etc'.
    Whatever the part of the shuttle that landed first, if it did so within the court's boundaries, it is IN.

    If not, it is OUT.

    You might want to know more about this subject.
    Recommended light reading: this and this :)
     
  12. Michael Jensen

    Michael Jensen Regular Member

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    You are contradicting youself, but I agree: the part, that landed first, counts.
    I have read it. Not relevant!
     
  13. jymbalaya

    jymbalaya Regular Member

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    you said it was grownups, not the umpires/ line judges if there were any. it could be the parents over reacting, wanting their child to win. let the kids make the calls.

    read everything Oldhand said. it is not contradictory at all.

    "Whatever the part of the shuttle that landed first, if it did so within the court's boundaries, it is IN."

    As for the below statement, read Oldhand's shown articles. they should make more sense now

    "children of that age simply can not be expected to have developed the kind of brain function
    "

    little children can make line calls, don't hate on them.
    your style of argument does not take everything into account, or you are not taking the time to read all the responses. either or, take time in the future,as the spare us all some time and sanity.
     
  14. Erik L.

    Erik L. Regular Member

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    It is my experience that younger kids should not be underestimated in their ability to assess line calls correctly. At last years" Bittburg Open I worked with two twelve year old kids and they were among the very best of the group of line judges, which as usual had a very high standard to begin with.

    Splitting hairs on how a shuttle lands and which part of the shuttle should be looked at ect. is nonsense. A line judge sees a shuttle land and calls and except in cases of organized cheating, 99 out of 100 calls are instant and correct.
     
  15. Woody

    Woody Regular Member

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    Hear Hear Eric L.

    Between what you, Oldhand and myself have said I would have thought that enough has been said.
     
  16. Michael Jensen

    Michael Jensen Regular Member

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    English is not my language so I appologize on any misunderstanding on my behalf.
    I want to summarize what I am trying to do. I try to provoke some experienced line judge or referee or whatever to write down an instruction on linecalls. In sport standards are allways set by the elite, and they are the elite in these matters. This book could be used among junior players, evening club players etc. to avoid unnessesary discussions. I don't think cheating is as common as sadly it is often claimed. I believe that a lot of it is misconception which could be corrected. You would never train badmintonplayers by just saying: watch and learn. You would "split hair on" the exact angle of his grip etc. So why not the same when it comes to linecalling.
    Yes. 12 year olds would be expected to perform rather well. 8 or 9 year olds wouldn't. The brainfunctions neaded for integrating shape, possition and motion are not fully develloped until puberty.
     
  17. Erik L.

    Erik L. Regular Member

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    I would certainly give the point on 8 or 9 year olds to Michael, line judging requires ability to concentrate for a longer period of time and that is a totally unfair burden on children of that age.

    An instruction on line judging does exist and forms a part of the BWF Recommendations to Tecnical Officials. These instructions also contain some information on positioning. It does not contain however any details om how to look at a shuttle, I think we consider that to be part of having a feel for the job.
    Altough calling lines is by far the most important part of line judging, it is more than just that. Being a line judge also involves being a member of a team of TO's officiating a match and that responsibillity goes far beyond looking at angles or other such details.

    I understand Michael 's point and I understand what he wants to achieve, but on the level at which eg Woody and I work, there is no need for such an instruction. Maybe it could work at club level, but certainly not in an international context.
     
  18. smashingmark

    smashingmark Regular Member

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    Firstly, line judges are humans and humans are not perfect. However never ever let the line call spoil your game cause when u get upset over a line call, I bet that you'll lose focus on the game and 100% u'll lose more points to come. As it is, badminton is a game of high pace which requires loads of skills and focus. If one stupid line call can upset you, you'll be on the loosing end. That's what happend to LCW at a couple of tournaments.

    Unless they come up with the 3D challenge replays like tennis, I think the human line judges are doing a fantastic job thus far. Maybe one or two bad calls in a game but its all part of the sport. I think what the sport is forgeting is how to be a good sportman. I believe Taufik has moved from being loud and flamboyant in the court to a very respectable player in and off the court. We'll I hope he beats Lin Dan in the HK Open Semis today.

    Ciao
    smashingmark
     
  19. Foppa17

    Foppa17 Regular Member

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    It's not a rocket science is it? It's either in or out. When I was playing in tournaments that required the teams to line, I hardly ever got any that slid. Look for the cork IMO, cos 95% of the time it's the part that lands first. I'll take those odds.
     

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