BWF tournaments and non-random draws?

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by s_mair, Oct 25, 2019.

  1. minions

    minions Regular Member

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    That's assuming that said player is a seeded player. A non-seeded player can meet with anyone. The chance will be 1/31.
     
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  2. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    True. Your assumption is BWF has the necessary knowledge or the software has that facility built in - unless you are familiar with the software itself. I am not so I don't speculate.

    I tried to look up the software but didn't find anything on google.... have you got more info on it?
     
  3. yuquall

    yuquall Regular Member

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    No I what I meant was that BWF could alter it by calling the right person (professional programmer) to do it either if they are a member of BWF or outsourcing. However they obtained the software in the first place, I have no idea though.
     
  4. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Some posts on same subject merged into this thread.
     
  5. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    32 slots, 8 permanent for seeds.
    seeds 1 & 2 are fixed into slot 1 & 32.
    seeds 3 & 4 randomly drawn into slot 9 & 24
    seeds 5 to 8 are randomly drawn into slots 5, 13, 20 & 28

    in my experience the remaining 24 slots are then filled in numerical order (2,3,4,6,7,8,10,11,12,14,15,16...) by random draw.
    if ranking #9 happens to be drawn first into slot 2 they end up playing #1 seed in round 1.

    players drawn against each other in consecutive tournaments are possible in this system since the names change from week to week.

    ie. one week rank #14 (lin dan) is drawn against #1 (momota) in round 1, next week rank #16 is drawn against #1. it may still be lin dan if lin dan's rank dropped to #16.

    this coincidence can occur whether it's drawn by human or random # generating software.

    people whine about it being fixed because it happens more often than it statistically should.

    a perfect 'fair' draw is where you seed all 32 players, which is pointless. even then, if your ranking changes week to week you might still end up playing the same opponents in the 1st round 5 times in a row.

    antonsen's whining on their behalf tells me what an idiot he is. hell, anyone who whines about it is an idiot.
    oh wait, i know... all they have to do is get their ranking up to #1 or 2 and make sure the opponents they're scared of are ranked 3 thru 8. boom. problem solved. :rolleyes:
     
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  6. pradeep chand

    pradeep chand Regular Member

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    what is protected rank
     
  7. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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  8. LoaS

    LoaS Regular Member

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    In a game of chance (like a random draw) an event happening more than it should do at random is the definition of a rigged game.

    In this case I'm assuming that the draws are not random due to the fixed positions of some seeds so Antonsen should take in consideration the distribution of draws when calculating the probability of two opponents meeting in the first round five time in a row.
     
  9. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    That's my feeling too. I'm sure that in the "calculation" of his math student friend they didn't acknowledge all the basic preferences of the drawing system (with seeds etc.) and by that, the draw is in fact a lot less random as maybe expected. And again, if the draw is done by a half decent computer program (which could and should be evaluated and audited from a neutral third party before engaging it), it should be a piece of cake to ensure a certain level of randomness. And if anyone considers the draws as rigged, the question would be why would anyone in the BWF want to rig a draw in the first place and what would be the bigger goal of that? The rules of the draws are clear and afaik not seriously questioned by anyone. And if you want to win a tournament, you have to be able to beat anyone in the draw - simple as that.

    And of course it is absolutely okay and part of the game that players from the same nationalities might meet in the first rounds on a regular basis. And the more participants from one country, the higher the chance that they are drawn against each other.

    So personally, I don't see any reason coming from this discussion that would suggest a change of the current drawing process. One thing that could be interesting though is to make the draws for the big tournaments into an event with livestream etc.
     
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  10. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    ...and did they factor in the changing names attached to the drawn #'s?
    exactly. there is no financial benefit to bwf.
    except the danes. ha!
    yup. it makes me think fanboys don't understand what a tournament is about: finding out who the best player is. i think they think it's a place where their faves can compete and get as far as they're entitled to get. "my fave got a hard/unfair draw... boo hoo hoo." omg, grow the f*ck up.
    bwf has done so for wc, olympics & thomas/uber in the past. don't know if they did the past few wc's. i wasn't paying attention. i'm 99% positive they'll do it for tokyo 2020.
     
  11. Pagz

    Pagz Regular Member

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    I guess you could argue that "rematches" make a game more interesting, but I doubt that BWF would rig the draw process because of that.
     
  12. Pagz

    Pagz Regular Member

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    I guess you could argue that "rematches" make a game more interesting, but I doubt that BWF would rig the draw process because of that.

    Edit: Oops, what happened here? Can a moderator or admin remove this post?
     
  13. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    And to risk a major scandal if the actual rigging became public for such a negligible benefit? Rather far-fetched if you ask me. Just imagine the gravity of that shitstorm, including possible financial claims of national federations.
     
  14. whatsthecallUmp

    whatsthecallUmp Regular Member

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    Lets stretch that drawing to be included in this sub-forum thread of rules and tournament regs for a brief moment, and not even address than Antonsen may be aspiring to be a game analyst someday in the near future (he can thank me someday for suggesting this if he feels like it of course).

    When was the last time, or, when were the times, where the top four seeds clashed in the semis?
    Now, that would be a properly drawn event, wouldn't it? And didn't Marin and Ying clash in the first round of the recently concluded Fuzhou China Open? The rankings and seedings does not give an idea of the toughness of the tournament, or does it?

    It is just fine that the network permits airing ideas and opinions just tickling the keyboard, however, the OP also could leave that to the medium it was posted. If I was a player, and I must beat you in the final (or any round), then beating you in the first round makes the whole draw easier.

    Any other thing, as one of the member who is also tourmment director writes, is boo-hoo. Luck of the draw just about sums it up.
     
  15. llrr

    llrr Regular Member

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    What you mentioned has nothing to do with the draw. If the top four seeds win all their matches every round, the draw is made properly so that they clash in the semis. It's just that in badminton it's difficult to stay consistent tournament after tournament so there are always upsets. Marin was drawn against TTY because she was coming back from injury and didn't have a high enough ranking to protect her against drawing other top seeds.
     
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  16. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    That wouldn't be properly drawn, that would be boring as hell. And besides, if the top four seeds all played a good tournament and beat all their opponents, they would all and up in the semi finals by definition.
     
  17. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    people tend to forget, or do not realize, the rankings of 6 weeks before a tournament is used to seed players. if there are no tournaments for awhile the rankings don't move. check the calendar and you'll see. a lot can happen in that gap: a slump, or recovering from injury sustained in training, or still entering with an injury you can play on but not win with. timing is everything, so if a bracket comes down to the top 4 making the semi's it isn't due to a properly drawn tournament... it's the l.u.c.k. of the d.r.a.w.

    this would be my experimental system for the highest grades [500/750/1000] since they are not held at the same time.
    1. seeding is based on the results from the previous tournament: 1 - winner, 2 - finalist, 3/4 - semi losers, 5/8 - qtr losers, 9/32/qualifiers for 500 are accepted according to ranking points and are placed in bracket by random draw.
    2. if a player skips a tournament they are unseeded for the next one they enter, subject to article 4.
    3. if a player (players) who would otherwise be seeded is (are) not entered the remaining seeds are moved up accordingly.
    4. the open seed slots are to be filled by the player(s) with the highest ranking points.
    the effect of article 4 on article 2 is if you decide to skip a tourney your ranking points may still get you seeded for the next one you enter.
    this creates incentive to stay fairly active if you're on a good run, but also gives you opportunity to rest if you have earned a high ranking.
     

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