Cai Yun ( 蔡赟 ) and Fu Haifeng ( 傅海峰 )

Discussion in 'China Professional Players' started by labyrinthian, Jun 1, 2005.

  1. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    First of all, why should the #3 be favorites to win Gold over the #1 and #2? Maybe you should look up the word. In this context, it means the pair MOST LIKELY OF ALL to win Gold. That would have been Cai/Fu or Chung/Lee, depending on personal opinion.

    Second - are you high? How the hell were BoMo "extremely tired"? They had a good night's sleep. They have excellent physios with them. The whole team would've done their best to help them recover as fast as possible. So, while they may possibly not have been at 100%, sure as hell they weren't extremely tired. Also, competing once a day is absolutely standard. If you start saying that's unfair, then maybe Usain Bolt isn't the best sprinter out there, after all someone else might possibly do better with 1 day more rest before the final? Also, if they WERE more tired than their opposition, that was because they didn't perform as well in the Semis. Cai/Fu slaughtered the Malaysians and made it through in straight games, so the spent less energy than BoMo because they were BETTER.

    Third. No way you could know how Cai/Fu & Chung/Lee would've played against each other. Cai/Fu managed to win in straight games over the Danes whereas Chung/Lee failed to win at all. So, I'm asking you, who performed better? Did Chung/Lee? Did they lose because they were so much better than the Chinese? No. They were nervy, made errors, and just couldn't stand the pressure. They performed worse than the Chinese against the Danes, and while that doesn't necessarily mean they would've lost against the Chinese, it surely indicates it. After all, if they couldn't stand up to BoMo's attack, what would they have done against Fu & Cai?

    Fourth. Face it - there's no luck at that level of competition except for net rolls or lucky frame hits. Winning with a close margin means that they were stronger - just not by much. At that stage of the match (anywhere over 20 in the deciding game), it pretty much all comes down to nerves - which pair can hold it together, perform their best, not make any tactical/technical errors? Once again I'm not trying to take anything away from Chung/Lee. The 2009 final was such a thriller and such a great performance, both teams really deserved to win Gold. But in the end, Cai/Fu were just that little bit stronger. Nothing to do with luck. Saying it was just luck is really unfair to both teams as it takes away from their performance (if the Koreans were weak enough to let them win just by luck, they weren't very strong to begin with, were they?).


    Just stop your petty tries to undermine their achievements. No matter what you say - Cai and Fu were the BEST at the Olympic Games. They won it purely on skill and it didn't have the slightest bit to do with luck. While no one can say with any certainty how a final between them and the Koreans would've played out, judging by their performances in the Semis, everyone got what they deserved in that tournament. BoMo were just barely able to squeeze by Chung/Lee, but a mile away from the CHN pair, and Tan/Koo were just not at the same level as the other 3. Personally I would've been happier with the Koreans taking the Silver, but we can't always have what we want, can we? :D
     
  2. fengyunfan

    fengyunfan Regular Member

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    He will skip China Master,Japan Open and CBSL due to the injury.
     
  3. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    Relax my friend. :D. Our idol is the same. If you don't trust me, pls read first post #46 & #50 http://www.badmintoncentral.com/for...er-Susi-quot-the-Ballerina-quot-Susanti/page3. On Dec 1, 2010 I wrote :
    I only disappointed with their performance in the final, bcoz I don't know if one of them was injured
     
  4. SibugiChai

    SibugiChai Regular Member

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    hopes he recover to continue smashing!!!!!!
     
  5. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    China Open SS title still missing from their collection. Win it this year, Cai / Fu :D:p. Off topic :
    Source : http://m.forum.detik.com/asian-games-guangzhou-bulutangkis-t217710p18.html?&page=18
     
    #1605 Fortune, Sep 3, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2012
  6. tandj

    tandj New Member

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    OMG, you really dont know much about professional badminton at all! you think the 'extra day of rest' is a bless to them? on the contrary, all the atheles were complaining about it. (watch some of their interviews at least, please.) Cuz It broke their usual cycle of the contest period!

    It is almost the first time that an important match has such a loose schedule. These top players were so used to build up their status one match per day in a coutinues 5 or 6 days and peak their performance at the last few matches (which r supposed to be the hardest). But this OG, not to mention the rubbish group stage, even at the knock out stage, they have to have one day interval between matches. It is very hard for them to maintain that level of excitement for matches with the so called extra day's rest. Especially while fu is having injury issue, he cannot practise much in that 'extra day' cuz it will worsen his elbow, yet he cannot really rest, cuz it will decrease his level of excitement, it was a very tough situation for cai/fu.

    These professional players are not like normal people, dont simply put the 'common sense' of yours on to these people. It is not only an insult to cai/fu but also to Boe/Mogensen as well.
     
  7. tandj

    tandj New Member

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    OMG, you really don't know much about professional players at all right? The 'extra day of rest' is not a blessing for them, on the contrary, all the athletes were complaining about it! (watch some interviews at least, please) Cuz it badly disturbed their usual cycle of contest period.

    This OG is the first time ever any major badminton tournament has such a loose schedule. Those top players are so used to build up their status one match or two per day, continuously and gradually, to reach the peak towards the final (which is supposed to be the hardest). Yet this OG, not to mention the rubbish group stage, even at the knock out stage, there is a forced one and half day interval between each match. That so called 'extra day of rest' actually made it very hard for them to maintain the level of excitment. Especially when you have major injuries, if you practice on the extra day, you are worsen your injury, but if you don't, you are decreasing you level of excitment which is equally harmful for the next match. That extra day was indeed a curse for the cai/fu, and never a loss for boe/mogensen.

    The professional players are not normal people. Please stop putting your 'common sense' onto them. It was not only an insult to Cai/fu but also to boe/mogensen as well!


    BTW, by not impressive you must mean the lack of long rallies?....I guess you are yet to learn to appreciate the beauty of serve and return of service...
     
  8. tandj

    tandj New Member

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    cant agree more!
    Chung/Lee have lost quite some matches to not particular Boe/mogensen but also other denish pairs. To me, it's just that they didn't really find an efficient way to compete against this type of players. And, maybe they put too much of their attention on cai/fu and havent done enough research on the dens. While cai/fu, beating 4 different top-pairs in 4 different major tournament finals, they are indeed the most solid, complete pair.
     
  9. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    can you give the link about the complain ?
    The first time ? 2008 OG also 9 days of competition, the same with 2012 OG.
    Maybe "one day break" was the reason why LCW lost sooooooo teribly in 2010 TC held in his homeground, after unbeatenable for 5 - 6 months in int'l tournaments :rolleyes:. This perhaps his worst ever performance in KL in so many years, salvaged only 25 pts. And maybe "one day break" was the reason why World #1 Wang Yihan and 2008 Olympics Champion Du J / Yu Yang lose to the Koreans in 2010 Uber Cup final :rolleyes:.
    According to 1992 OG champion and 5 times World Champion Park Joo Bong :
    So who are you ? 6 times world champion ? :rolleyes:
    Read again my post, and you will know who is my fav pair.
    The extremely tired BoMo rely on smash to score points, 18 out of 30 pts, means 60%. BoMo smash in final not as lethal as in the SF. If they are fit, it is game over for the injured CHN pair. That's why I said, luck is in my fav pair (Cai / Fu). When they was injured, they didn't meet JJS / LYD, and only facing the extremely tired BoMo.
     
    #1609 Fortune, Sep 12, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
  10. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Enough with the extremely tired. They weren't. End of story. The competition was not tougher than any other SS tournament, where no one ever stated they were 'extremely tired' in the final. Cut the crap.
    Also, why would you assume that they would've won this if they had been in slightly better shape? They have a very bad H2H against Cai/Fu and have never been able to go the same pace as them. They few times they won they did because they managed to slow the game down to their fav. pace.
    Also, the better smash is definitely Fu. While Mogensen is a great back court player he can not hold a candle to Fu concerning penetration and smashing power. He's very good at keeping the attack, but the only thing that stupid 60% smash winner statistic shows is that Cai/Fu were defending high rather than give Boe any chance to kill it at the net and sometimes ended up short. A day of rest would NOT have transformed Mogensen into an all-day smashing machine. Imop, he played very well from the back and there was absolutely NO sign of fatigue with either of the Danes. They were outpaced, had the worse serve-return game and just could not stand up to the fired up Chinese. They also snatched at a couple shots at the net, which is a sign of nerves, not fatigue.
    Now stop hallucinating about any what-if scenario and face that the Danes were never anywhere close to beating the Chinese, whether they had 1 day of rest or 500.
     
  11. Duke Chen

    Duke Chen Regular Member

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    damn:crying:
     
  12. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    For me, I can never understand nor accept how top athletes can complain of tiredness when they have been consistently training much harder and longer than required of matches/tournament. Unless he/they were unlucky enough to play grueling long matches round after round without a break, to then attribute their loss in the final to tiredness (physical not mental) is a poor excuse. Time to seriously do something about the fitness/stamina part of the training then.

    Besides, a day's rest whether entitled to by the format or given due to walkover is not necessarily a good thing. It disrupts your momentum and breaks the high that you've built up, doing more harm than good.

    I read that in tennis, even Roger Federer who recently was given a walkover by his opponent (due to heart palpitation and advised by doctor to rest and seek medical examination, IIRC) and then went on to lose the next round to a lesser player he used to beat was pissed off by it, preferring to play every round.
     
  13. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    Actually, I will ignore your post since our idol is the same, but since you are like to say stupid to me (twice already), so let's prove who is stupid :rolleyes:.First of all, where is my post that says world #3 are the favorite to win the gold over #1 and #2 ? Prove it in here ! And if you say #3 are not the favorite, then where is the logic if #2 also the favorite ? The #2 (Cai / Fu) has bad H2H records against the world #1 (Jung / Lee) 10 - 11, and become 10 - 13 if we also count AG 2010 that held in Cai/fu home ground. And also, Jung/Lee beat the fresh and focus Cai/FU SPECTACULARLY in their last duel, where the KOR MD also played in Germany open & AE 2012, while CHN MD only played in AE 2012. Why Cai/Fu also the favorite ???
    Playing for 81 minutes is not extremely tired ? How old are them ? Bo/Mo = 30 & 32 years old. Even Taufik says fatigue as the reason why he lose to Chen Hong. And do you know what is their H2H before 2005 Japan open ? 6 - 0 for TH. Even a player that have good H2H also can lose if he was not fit, not to mention the player / pair that have bad H2H and extremely tired. Yes, TH played for 95 minutes, but he was only 23 at that time. Older player surely needs more time to recover than younger player
    Yes, one match a day is absolutely standard, but how many of them going to 81 minutes ? Only 2 out of 247 matches before OG 2012 ! LOL ! 81 & 89 minutes, the longest match for Bo/Mo since 2005 until INA SSP 2012 http://www.tournamentsoftware.com/find.aspx?a=8&oid=209B123F-AA87-41A2-BC3E-CB57133E64CC&q=50292 Even 2 times world champion (almost 31 y.o @ OG 2008) says that one day rest is GOOD, eventhough Nova/Lily only played for 32 minutes vs THA pairs.Read once again, only 32 minutes, not 81 minutes. LOL !
    Have you read it ? 32 minutes only but needs one day rest. So, 81 minutes doesn't need one day rest ? LOL !

    Compare world #1 and world #8 ? Really stupid comment hahaha :p. I will explain it in the last part of this post hahaha
    Cai/Fu perform better vs Danes compare to Jung/Lee simply bcoz the Danes was extremely tired. When both pairs are very fit, Danes can do more smash in SF compare to Final, resulting 27 - 28 smash winners vs 18 smash winners only. And even they are extremely tired, they can make 18 smash winners. What a performance by the world champion
    With the score like 28 - 26 in G3, 1 error is enough to level the scores.
    I never say Cai/Fu are not the best in OG, simply bcoz they are the champion. But they can win the gold bcoz they are lucky.
    Comparing #1 and #8 ? Really stupid. Read again your post. Koo/Tan were not in the same level, that's the main point. that's why #2 pairs (Cai/Fu) can win it in just 40 minutes. BoMo facing the toughest opponent, the world #1 Jung / Lee, and win over Jung / Lee is a difficult task for them, and now you wanna say they must win as fast as Fu/Cai match vs Koo/Tan ??? Really stupid hahaha :p
     
    #1613 Fortune, Sep 23, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2012
  14. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    Edit for post #1613 : Bo/Mo @ OG 2012 = 29 & 32 y.o., not 30 & 32
     
  15. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    I really appreciate your posting style...thanx Justin L ...you are really different with j4ckie :rolleyes:. Back to topic. One day rest is good, especially if one player / pair was extremely tired.
    I will not discuss about tennis, bcoz we are talking about badminton. In uber cup 1996, Mia Audina replace Susi Susanti vs Ye ZY in group match. What is the reason ? to keep her (Susi) fresh for the next match http://www.worldbadminton.com/shuttlenws/960518.txt. And that's not the only one. In SC 05, Sony replace TH to face L D in group match. Simon (replace Sony) vs L D in SC 09. And Korea gives rest for all of their key players in the last match of SC 09 vs HK, bcoz they already qualify for SF http://www.tournamentsoftware.com/s...991DFE99-023B-4853-8AF6-39255247D465&match=16. And that makes the Koreans has 3 - 4 days rest for SF match :p. Sony itself has 5 - 6 days for rest for SF match. And what's happened to them in the next match ? Susi win in the 3rd group match, and even in SF and Final UC 1996. TH win in SF 2005, Sony win in SF 2009, and Korea win over Indonesia 3 - 1 in 2009 SF...where Sony win the only point for Indonesia
     
    #1615 Fortune, Sep 23, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2012
  16. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    I would recommend you learn English before arguing further, fortune. I did not compare #1 and #8 (Cai/Fu were #2, btw). I simply said that the #2's performance was so good that they went through the match quickly and saved energy.
    Neither did I call you stupid at any point (I claimed one of your arguments to be stupid). Stop mentioning sth that isnt true.

    Anyhow, your whole argument is based on two hypotheses: a) that the Danes were in fact extemely tired, which can arguably be doubted (while they may not have been at 100%, they will have recovered as well as possible) and b) that in better shape, they would have gotten 50-60% more smash winners.
    While hypothesis a) is an exaggeration, but might essentially be true (they might've been a little more tired than the Chinese), hypothesis b) is without any doubt wrong. Why would they have gotten so many more smash winners if they were in better physical shape? They lost most of the serve-return game, got few lifts, and actually did the best they could with what they got. However, they were just not good enough to create more attacking opportunities. Your whole hypothesis is based on the assumption that in better physical shape they would've gotten over 50% more attacking opportunities. That would not have happened. Cai/Fu were better in the serve/return situation, and that had nothing whatsoever to do with physical fitness. They also blew BoMo out of the water concerning flat, fast, drive-based game which occurs when both teams refuse to lift - BoMo were so afraid of Fu's attack that they rather tried to win an uphill battle in flat rallies than give him the opportunity to smash. The Chinese, however, were perfectly comfortable playing a game where they were superior, so they didn't see the need to lift too often.

    Oh, and how does your whole 'extremely tired'-idea hold up to the fact that CM smashed hard until the very end? If he had in fact been so tired that he could not smash properly anymore, wouldn't anyone have noticed? Gill Clark, who has without a shadow of a doubt more experience in the sport than any of us, commented that the Danes were outclassed and that it was nearly a bit of a shame this final couldn't be as exciting and thrilling as the others because it was a "master class" by the Chinese.


    I'm growing tired of you repeating your argument over and over again despite how many times it's been proven to be wrong, btw. Everyone else agrees that there's no way professional sportsmen are extremely tired when competing the same way as usual (no day of rest between matches). Why can't you just accept that? The way you argue makes it seem like you're a die-hard fan of the Danish combination and not the Chinese as you claim :rolleyes:
     
  17. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    One day rest is good to have but not essential. A top athlete if he wants to be the best must be prepared for the worse case scenario as far as fitness and stamina are concerned. If a contestant feels tired and a rest day is given whether by arrangement or stroke of luck, consider that a bonus; if not available,he still has to be prepared for battle. That, to me, is the hallmark of a true champion.

    As we know fitness can be trained by anyone who is dedicated and hardworking but less so is skills training; even more so natural talent which different person is gifted to varying degrees though it has often been said that hard work can make up for lack of talent. So whatever it is, a professional player will never allow himself to be handicapped by lack of fitness, esp for those with inferior or insufficient talents.

    About the rest day advantage, I have another thinking. I feel that it's more mental than physical. Mental weariness or unpreparedness affects the body much more than the other way round. Those cases you quoted I am inclined to view them as illustrations of this principle. In other words, to a player who is mentally strong, motivated,self-confident and possesses inner self-belief, that one day rest or lack thereof shouldn't make much of a difference, at least it won't be so significant as to be a decisive factor.

    Haven't we heard of contests where a particular contestant seems to be labouring under difficult conditions or struggling against all odds particularly in the physical aspect but finally managing to overcome it by sheer willpower and determination? For this I need not provide illustrative examples for I believe we all have our own story to tell.

    Simply put, if you're mentally tired, even if you're fairly strong and unstretched bodily you'll still feel drained,spent,exhausted. Conversely, a mentally 'high' person, self-driven, spirited is undeterred and ever ready to go on, and actually will make it through without showing noticeable signs of fatigue. This might sound cliched, an oversimplification, a truism but that's how I view it.

    As an analogy, when a player says he's tired he may mean he's been playing too much badminton and just wants a break - this isn't the same as saying, in that match he was too weak to play from lack of rest. As we all know, professional players regularly train 7-8 hours a day, so what is an hour or more match a day; of course,tournament condition is different but it's more to do with the added mental stress than the physical demand which they can cope, barring injury.

    It's your prerogative to use those examples to argue your case. Similarly,allow me the same privilege to quote your example to argue otherwise. For example, the case where Sony D K had 5-6 days rest for his SF Sudirman Cup'05 match while the Koreans had 3-4, slightly less for their next match - you used this two examples to conclude that the long break facilitated their subsequent victories. The problem is assertion is not the same as proof. How do you prove the number of days rest was what contributed to their wins - what if they'd lost? Surely there are cases where a player/team with rest day(s) went on to lose.

    Another point I want to reiterate as I've said this elsewhere is: if a day's rest is necessary and advantageous, why are qualifiers at SS/GPG tournaments required to play two matches a day and immediately scheduled to play the next day if they qualify into the main draw, and that against higher-ranked opponents who start fresh in round one?

    As an aside, frankly I'm impressed with your ability to call forth so much data,facts and figures to back up your arguments although I don't necessarily always agree with your judgements and conclusions. Your doing so must have caused you considerable research effort, possibly tedious and painstaking work unless you have special means or access to resources not widely available to most of us or maybe you posses a secret technique(?). Needles to say, without questioning their veracity, many of us reading your posts would have indirectly derived benefits from them in terms of details and knowledge gained, thanks to you.

    My parting shot: I can confidently say, Bo/Mo with or without the one day rest will probably lose to Cai/Fu at the LOG Final assuming they all play at or near their best. A subjective claim nonetheless.
     
  18. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Sorry,a typo error significant enough to make amendment (if very minor I won't bother): para.1 - ... the worst case scenario....
     
    #1618 Justin L, Sep 25, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  19. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    No sign of fatigue after playing for 81 mintues ? Do you think they just walk around for 81 minutes ? If they play like the 4 pairs in WD, yes, I agree they are not tired.
    So you wanna say the preparation of all players / pairs in OG is the same when they prepare for SS events ? What a joke hahaha
    Only slightly better shape ? So according to you, the 81 minutes of SF duel didn't make significant impact for them ??? Even 2 times World champion Nova needs one day rest for stamina recovery after 32 minutes of duel
    Yeah, all of us already know Fu has the fastest smash in the world, but BoMo also not far behind. In their first duel, China Masters 07, Cai/Fu can make 14 smash winners vs 3. But when the Danes already know Cai/Fu style, they are almost pretty even. In the other 7 duels, only 3 smash winners (138 vs 135) separates Cai/Fu and Bo/Mo. Read once again, only 3 within 7 duels.
    The only stupid thing is BoMo can fires 28 smash winners against Jung/Lee (when both pairs are very fit, and LYD focus only in MD for the last 2 - 3 days). And as far as I know, Cai/Fu defence is not as solid as Jung/Lee. That's the reason why I said BoMo can win if they are fit, as they already proved in the SF when they win against World #1 and clear favorite Jung/Lee.
    A day of rest already enough for BoMo to beat Jung/Lee...thanks to 28 smash winners, against the pair that has the most solid defence in the world in the last 2 - 3 years. After playing for 70 minutes, BoMo still can make 2 - 3 smash winners. Really different with final, especially in the second set.
    When you are extremely tired, it is very likely to do more mistakes.
    It seems that you don't know much about rest days. Rest for 3 months (+/- 90 days) is not good for your performance, not to mention the 500 days. Cai/Fu can slaughtered BoMo if the Danes rest for 500 days LOL :p. 500 days of rest is bad for everyone lol :p. About 1 rest day ? I think it is not my hallucination, as BoMo can beat the world #1
     
    #1619 Fortune, Sep 27, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  20. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    I know my English not so good, but I can clearly understand what you mean. I would recommend you to improve your logic before arguing further, j4ckie. Koo/Tan is not in the same level as the other 3 (this is your own words)...means an easier opponent, that's why Cai/Fu can win it quickly...,while BoMo facing the toughest opponent, even stronger than Cai/Fu, no wonder if the match going into rubber sets, and finished more than 80 minutes. If Jung/Lee = world #9, yes...it can compare...I'm agree with you, it was BoMo's fault. But now, you are comparing #1 and #8. What a joke hahaha :p
    I just wanna say, if you are not smart enough, never say stupid to others
    Even Nova needs one day rest after 32 minutes duel. So 81 minutes duel doesn't need one day rest ? How about the comment of Park Joo Bong and Taufik ? Can you explain ?
    Cai/Fu only plays for 36 minutes, BoMo for 81 minutes (longer more than twice), so this is called a little more tired ?

    When both pairs are very fit, BoMo can win against Jung/Lee. While they are extremely tired, they can give a good fight vs Cai/Fu
    When you are extremely tired, most of your shots going into the wrong direction.
    I didn't notice about Gill Clark comment. I only concetrate to watch the game. And even she not mention about extremely tired, doesn't mean BoMo not extremely tired. Maybe she is trying to pleased the China fans that are "tired" already with her anti-China comment as usual
    Have you seen my previous post about China players ?
     
    #1620 Fortune, Sep 27, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012

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