Carolina Marin: Spain

Discussion in 'Professional Players' started by scuInd78, Nov 23, 2011.

  1. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    Please excuse the following rant, but I just can't help myself.

    After watching that final against TTY today, I fell like I have more than reached my personal maximum dosage of Carolina-ism. And boy, was she back to her worse old self today with her overall behaviour and demeanor on court. I know this will lead to some controversy, but ffs her screaming has reached a level at which someone at the BWF simply has to draw a line somewhere. We are now at 3-5 horrendous screams after an important point and she won't do it under 2 it seems. This is no longer cheering or self-motivation, this is simple intimidation tactics that she is using deliberately. I know, I know, Carolina is doing this forever, but I would have just loved to grab her by the shoulders, shaking her and tell her to finally cut that bullsh*t today.

    On top of that, her delaying strategies were beyond everything with an amazingly poor umpire that let her get away with pretty much everything. Leaving the court to towel down every two to three rallies without asking the umpire? Sure, why not! Changing the shuttle after already being ready for the serve? Of course, be my guest!
    And then there is just this bold rudeness when "passing" the shuttle to her opponent to serve means for ther to thrash it basically anywhere on the court.

    Again, I know this is nothing new and maybe I should habe become used to that at some point, but something just made me snap today. Gosh, did I cheer for the (almost equally screaming TTY) in that decider today!

    Carolina, your game is amazing. But please... please, please, please... grow up and start being the role model that the European badminton community so desperately needs.

    Rant over. For now.
     
  2. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    The shouting is purely to pump herself up. Actually we can see that more and more WS players are starting to follow her... like TTY, RI, Okuhara... especially when playing against her.

    But the passing the shuttle *intentionally* to the wrong side of the court... now that is the worst behaviour that I as a spectator nor any umpire should not tolerate. Reflects very poorly on her character and the sponsors on her shirt.

    Sent from my SM-G988W using Tapatalk
     
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  3. vozer here

    vozer here Regular Member

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    someone somewhere this forum: "this is a discussion forum". So if u want to speak and no listen, start no controversy, better make a blog. The screaming yes no thing new, already "discussed" in a thread which ppl prefer to express theirself . "Simple intimidation tactics that she is using deliberately", to who? U feel that but u're not her opponent to complain

    the rest part which i dont quote, i agree
     
  4. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    Can you imagine having an opponent on the other side who is shrieking like that after every one of your simple mistakes? Does he do it to pump himself up or to distract you and psychologically push you down? Or both? Does it really matter?
    What Carolina is doing there is not limited to herself, but inevitably influences her opponents (at least as a "side effect"). And not in a good way to put it mildy.

    Of course I know that there are different opinios on the screaming. Heck, even the BWF apparently says that it's within the rules and still goes along with it. Personally, I wholeheartedly disagree on this and I cannot understand how they could allow this to be an example and role model for the upcoming generation and everyday players. And there is no doubt, if I was faced with an opponent who was screaming just a remotely comparable level (at a super-low league level of course), I would not continue to play, period. And I wonder what would happen if a top-level opponent in an important match had the guts to call it quits and to force BWF to discuss the issue openly.

    Yes, she has been doing this ever since she entered the big stage (most likely before too), but the thing that concerns me is that it's getting worse. During her first and second WC, the ration was like 1 shriek per (important) point. Now we are at 2 minimum for even the most simple mistake by the opponent up to 5 after really important and hard fought points. Where is this going to stop? Is she testing the limits at how far the BWF is willing to let it slip?

    The sad thing is, that she was going through a phase before her knee injury in which she had reduced the screaming noticeably. And she was still playing great badminton.
     
    #704 s_mair, Jan 31, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
  5. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    the role model ship sailed years ago. the high profile major sports started the trend ages ago. there's so much strutting and screaming and whining over non-big plays it's ridiculous and it trickled its way into every sport. you can thank television for that. it's entertainment. it's good tv, and since tv is the major source of money we get to watch and hear it all whether we like it or not. the screaming/shrieking/war cry is badminton's version of it.

    back to our sport... it doesn't bother me one way or the other. however, if someday the athletes & bwf want to do something about it what would need to happen? i only ask because my interest is: can it be officiated based on specific criteria and not umpire discretion? we constantly witness what umpire discretion leads to... yikes. nothing ruins sports more than ambiguous officiating.
    1. is a rule needed to regulate it?
    2. what would the specific guidelines be?
    3. how would the rule be enforced?
    i'm very interested in hearing anyone's ideas to my 3 ?'s above.
    you can apply those same ?'s to 'undue delay'.
    i think 100% no. it's not a matter of guts. i think of it this way: you've been working your ass off for years in time, energy & money to get to this important match. so now you're gonna forfeit because you don't like the opponents screaming?
    1. if you're on one of the world's power teams will your federation allow that?
    2. if you're a self-financed player from a minor federation would you forfeit?
     
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  6. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    Of course you are 100% correct on this. That's exactly why nobody is seriously going down that road.

    Thing is that the big federations of all major sports are presenting themselves and their topstar players as the leaders for fair play, sportsmanship, tolerance etc., so you cannot let them off the hook that easily. And besides, is a shrieking Carolina something that anyone wants to see and turns on the TV or Youtube to watch? Nah, it's the other way round.

    That cuts to the chase of the whole issue. And I'm afraid that I have no easy answers for that. I'm not that deep into the rules and how they might be applicable for the issue, so it would be interesting for me to hear what @phihag has to say on this. Or maybe this analysis was already done a while ago and someone can dig out the post.

    The answer to 3) is easy: The umpires on court have to enforce the rules or guidelines that have been set before by the BWF. Always a critical issue, I know, but still shouldn't be reason to not even touching the topic.

    It's a darn complicated topic that just doesn't have an easy solution. And I had managed to cope with it for a while now. But there was something about that match yesterday that has blown a fuse inside me and made me angry. Really angry. And I don't want to feel anger when watching the two best players fighting through such a nailbiter match.
     
  7. vozer here

    vozer here Regular Member

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    "imagine", back to the point "you're not her opponent to complain", this is audience complain

    when did player complain abt the noise? he in wc 2018. The noise from audience http://sports.sina.com.cn/others/badmin/2018-08-05/doc-ihhhczfa8429527.shtml (i use chrome translate)
     
  8. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    deep down they don't care that much. the more a team wins, the more lenient they are with their athletes. they put their upstanding athletes in front of the camera, not always their best athletes.
    to carolina it's not bullshit.

    what would you do if you were fernando rivas? if you suppress your athlete in any way you are risking not getting the best out of them. make her 'behave' and you might not have 3 wc's and 1 olympic gold. he saw the fire in her when she was young and knew it was an important aspect of her. suppress that fire and you risk ending up with a pile of ashes.

    so what really matters more? personality, likeability, sportsmanship or winning? depends who you are in the equation.

    a scenario maybe only i can imagine taking place: :D

    fan/journalist/fellow athlete: hi fernando, hi carolina. big fan or your work. ummm, don't you think it would be nice, like, you know, ummmm, to, well, you know, tone down your screaming and gamesmanship just a weeeeeeeeeeeee bit?

    fernando & carolina look at each other, look at person: uhhh... do we tell you how to do your job? how to become the best in the world at your job? oh, i see, that's not your goal. go f*ck yourself.
     
    #708 samkool, Feb 1, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2021
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  9. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    Come on, don't be ridiculous. Of course nobody wants to change a winning system. And they surely won't do it by nicely asking. That's why I'm saying that it's up to the BWF to decide where to set the limit and to enforce this limit by the umpires. If they leave it to the umpires alone, nothing will be happening since most of them would rather face plant themselves from their seat than finally giving cards for bad sportsmanship (I'm including the delay and shuttle transfer issue in the whole picture here...) without having the BWF as backup and ordering them to.

    Not sure how it would have been if it was for the shrieking alone, but the overall picture she showed of herself on court this past sunday was just bad as can be. She came across as a rude bully. And I hated seeing her like that.
     
    #709 s_mair, Feb 1, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
  10. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    This goes in both directions. Not saying anything (publicly) does not mean being okay with it either.

    And @visor, speaking of "purely to pump herself up", I just stumbled across this quote from 2018:

    "...They know now how I play and how I use this scream. In the past, there have been times when I used it to put pressure on the opponent..."
    https://www.indiatoday.in/sports/ba...cs-to-intimidate-opponents-1414902-2018-12-21

    or another one from 2017:

    "...Sometimes I've to control it, but I think it's a way for me of telling opponents that they don't stand a chance against me."
    https://www.espn.com.au/badminton/story/_/id/18386128/carolina-marin

    So of course, she is aware of the side effect on the opponent and makes use of it. Not that this would change anything about the rule situation, mind you.
     
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  11. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Nah, the real ugly side of her character is not from her shrieking, but very simply and obviously from the way she rudely shoves the shuttle to her opponent into the "wrong" side of the court that the opponent will serve from. That is intentional in her passive aggressive behaviour and is not forgivable. I don't care if she's an OG gold champion. That is absolutely despicable. She will deserve the hatred of many. If this is also part of Rivas' instruction and modus operandi, then he too has lost all my respect.

    Sent from my SM-G988W using Tapatalk
     
    #711 visor, Feb 2, 2021
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  12. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    like many others here i consider the shrieking & her conduct 2 separate issues.

    the screaming doesn't bother me. her conduct is not what you can call sportsmanship, but that doesn't bother me either. when i watch sports i don't come away liking or disliking any of the athletes. it's entertainment. i like watching highly skilled athletes do their job. if some sort of drama develops during the competition all the better, whether its momentum swings or behavior. i like to see the underdog win. i like to discuss, analyze and make predictions. i just hope it's officiated correctly, because nothing kills the entertainment value more than bad officiating.

    in my book carolina is highly entertaining to watch.
     
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  13. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Well. Then I suppose some people like to see and hope for such drama as Tyson biting Holyfield's ear in boxing. And Williams berating Ramos the umpire in the US open final. And Zidane's headbutt. But really, if I wanted drama, I'd rather be watching my favourite series on Netflix.

    I don't think anyone enjoys displays of awful human behaviour and poor sportsmanship at the top levels of sports, just as I don't think anyone hopes for a chance to witness road rage or a car accident when out driving. Or maybe some people really do?! Kinda twisted imho...

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    #713 visor, Feb 2, 2021
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  14. Nine Tailed Fox

    Nine Tailed Fox Regular Member

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    Was not aware that screaming is a psychological Weapon and a part of detailed mental warfare for her.

    I thought it came naturally to her. SMH
     
  15. Nine Tailed Fox

    Nine Tailed Fox Regular Member

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    There is a player in our club that returns the shuttle through fast aggressive drive directed towards you when he loses the point.
     
  16. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    nothing wrong with that, but, they aren't exactly the same. one is scripted.
    of course they do. tv ratings prove it. bitter rivalries do great $. opposing fans love a compelling villain.
    those aren't exactly the same either. competition vs. potential loss of life? don't worry. i don't really think you think they're actually in the same category of drama.

    what do you think her fan base in spain thinks about her?
    i call it perspective.
     
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  17. It'sMeMeMe

    It'sMeMeMe Regular Member

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    As far as i know screaming also releases adrenaline, pump you up, increase ur heart rate n blood flow......it pretty much serves dual purpose for Marin......make her stronger n weaken the opponent morale

    Those with medical degree may correct me if i'm wrong....
     
  18. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

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    CM following the path of LD as the "G.O.A.T. / badgirl" of WS badminton. (For screaming and sending back the shuttle the other way)

    Did LD get the same kind of heat from fans back in the day? He has shown some serious attitude compared to CM.

    Women tend to receive more criticism than men when they show some attitude that is not accepted by the norms of the society. S. Williams and many sportwomen received a similar feedback from the public for taking other routes than what was expected from them. On the other hand if a dude throw a tantrum say, it is better accepted.

    I wonder how does the Tour (other players and coaches) talk about her? Not like it matters.

    Like her or not, she knows what she is doing. And it works. (titles, list of sponsors and media/crowd attention included)
     
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  19. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    i have yet to see carolina break a racket on purpose out of frustration during a match like taufik hidayat, to which nobody seemed to care.
     
  20. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    It's not right to put out the big sexism bat here. Carolina's behaviour on court is aweful. If a guy did the same, it would be aweful as well.

    First of all: Whataboutism. Two different and unrelated topics.
    Second: She can damage her own property as much as she wants to, as long as she leaves the opponent out of it. She would have to deal with the consequence of receving cards instantly in that case, which is not happening with the other things she does in reality.

    Looking at the discussion so far, it's obvious to me that people have very different views and expectations on what they would like to see happening on court. Same goes for the importance and understanding of fair play and sportsmanship. And hey, if anyone enjoys the show and turns on the TV or Youtube to watch her matches, then I have zero problems with that. But don't expect everybody else to feel the same way.
     
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