Carolina Marin: Spain

Discussion in 'Professional Players' started by scuInd78, Nov 23, 2011.

  1. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,115
    Likes Received:
    829
    Occupation:
    Language teacher & graduate student in linguistics
    Location:
    Europe
    Why isn't it right? In my opinion it is totally appropriate and it plays a role in CM's heavy criticism compared to her men's peers for similar or worst behaviour.

    Also just to make it clear, I was not referring to you in particular but as a general issue in sports. Which I believe certainly applies in the case of CM. Again may be not you. Not everyone who dislike or criticize CM is being sexist. For sure not.

    But seeing how much heat (generally speaking) she receives for what she does and how it compares with some men, I do not see why is it not right to adress the matter. The issue has been largely raised in sports generally, why wouldn't it apply to badminton too?
     
  2. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    Messages:
    4,388
    Likes Received:
    2,727
    Location:
    Germany
    Name one active male badminton player (or any other sports basically) that behaves just remotely the same as Carolina - and/or doesn't receive the same heat as her. Look at the sh*tstorm that washed over Novak Djokovic after the US-Open incident (and ended with an immediate disqualification, mind you).

    She doesn't get the heat because she is a woman, it is because of what she is doing. And again, just because somebody else might be behaving equally bad doesn't change or compensate anything in the whole debate.
     
  3. Sumanth99

    Sumanth99 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2018
    Messages:
    766
    Likes Received:
    329
    Occupation:
    Software Engineer
    Location:
    Hyderabad
    Scenario 1: Person A is playing person B who is very aggressive in playstyle, beats their racket, displays desire to win through aggressive game.
    Scenario 2: Person A is playing person C who is disrespectful, always throws shuttle, tries to serve fast, receive slow, shouts on face for your mistakes.

    A, B, C can be of any gender.

    Now if you are player A will you be comfortable playing B or C, most people gets absolutely irritated to play C, I really appreciate these professional players for putting up against all this. Most people criticize CM because they can't relate to all the disrespectful things she does and can't imagine themselves in position of person A against person C.

    Kevin also exhibits person C like behavior sometimes.

    Lin Dan was aggressive at times but I don't think he is constantly disrespectful to his opponents throughout his career.
     
    s_mair likes this.
  4. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2004
    Messages:
    2,179
    Likes Received:
    1,325
    Occupation:
    too pre-occupied to work
    Location:
    the next world tour tournament
    ummm... professional hockey players actually come to blows pretty often, right? fighting is expected and they don't get any heat for it. all they get is a time penalty. no disqualification in sight. so is that more mild or worse than carolina's behavior?
    what he did is explicitly written in the rules of tennis as an immediate disqualification... hitting the ball towards a line judge/umpire/ball boy & girl or however it's worded.

    on the whole the laws of badminton are extremely vague in a lot of areas. too much umpire discretion. there's so much room for questionable behavior. bwf is solely to blame since they write the rules. they are allowing it to happen.
    • have courtside shuttle retrievers near the net like tennis. that would eliminate a lot of undue delaying between points & shuttle return issues from disgruntled players. they could also toss in a new shuttle when requested.
    • get rid of courtside coaching. save it for mid-game interval & between games, or
    • have a 20-25 second limit timer to serve the next point like tennis. that leaves plenty of time to change rackets &/or towel down &/or retrieve a new shuttle &/or get a few words of coaching.
    unfortunately in professional sports you absolutely have to write specific behavior based rules. you can't rely solely on an athletes goodwill. there's a lot at stake and they're trying to make a living.

    i repeat: bwf is solely to blame since they write the rules. they are allowing it to happen.
     
    LenaicM likes this.
  5. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,115
    Likes Received:
    829
    Occupation:
    Language teacher & graduate student in linguistics
    Location:
    Europe
    I respectfully disagree. First I dislike her small attitudes but I see it from other male players too, it mainly goes silent. And I agree with you, it is not because men do it that it is ok when she does. But my concern is about the amplitude it takes when it is CM.

    Before that incident you mentioned, which is recent, the history of sexism in tennis was much more serious (what about badminton?) Plenty of serious papers or press articles about sexism in tennis or more generally in sports. I am not the one making it up or raising the issue out of nowhere.

    Back to badminton, LD did much worst than CM in terms of small and big display of attitude. Including running after a coach, sending shuttles the other way or behind the player, leaving matches before the end because no Hawkeye were on court, etc. He never received the same kind of feedback from fans. Look at K. Sukamuljo, most fans find him entertaining and tag his antics as a display of personality. CTC gave a middle finger recently and I have seen him show some attitude when returning the shuttle too (which disappointed me a lot as I am a fan of his style of play).

    Again, I agree, that doesn't mean the more the merrier. No one is saying it is ok either to display this sort of attitude, men or women . But it doesn't take the same proportions on the forum when it is CM. Why is this? Why CM, which is showing more attitude than anyone else on court in WS (ASY did a little provocative dance at the Uber Cup 2018 but it never reached such proportions as it was a one time event) takes such heat when she is clearly not the only player showing displays of attitude on court.

    Dont get me wrong I do not enjoy it. In fact, as I already said it, I am no fan of hers and I appreciate better players like R.I. for her generous display of politeness even when she thanks the person sweeping the sweat off her side of the court. Not everyone does that.

    Also, it is not because you are not sexist that some aren't. I do understand, agree and hear your point. May be what I said wasn't applying to you. I am raising the sexism issue about CM on the forum and more generally the society.
     
    Woesi, kwun and samkool like this.
  6. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    Messages:
    4,388
    Likes Received:
    2,727
    Location:
    Germany
    Come on mate, now you're grasping at straws. Wrestlers and boxers also end up with bloody noses rather often I've heard.

    Both are and have been criticised for their behaviour a lot. Not by their fans, but from those on the other side of the aisle. The Kevin/Marcus thread is bursting with posts about his openly shown disrespect. Another example is Anders Antonsen who has received a lot of fire after many questionable appearances.

    The interesting question is, why CM is so openly criticised for her behaviour? Maybe it is because with everything in combination, the screaming and the other stuff, it is just so prominent and in-your-face in each and every appearance on court that you just cannot look past it. In what percentage of matches did LD pull off a comparable stunt? Or CTC shown the finger (which I haven't seen yet tbh.)? If they did that in every single match, oh boy there would be something going on as well.

    Thing is, we can go on like this forever without reaching a conclusion that everybody agrees on. Of course there is a lot of sexism happening everywhere in our society, needless to discuss that. I just don't think that it plays a significant role in the whole CM-issue. Since there are no data or facts available to prove either of us right or wrong, I guess we just have to agree to disagree on that point - which is totally fine for me.
     
    #726 s_mair, Feb 8, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
    visor and LenaicM like this.
  7. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    1,115
    Likes Received:
    829
    Occupation:
    Language teacher & graduate student in linguistics
    Location:
    Europe
    Indeed, that is totally fine. In fact it is most interesting to tackle the CM issue from different angles, right or wrong (or a little bit of both).
     
    s_mair likes this.
  8. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    Messages:
    4,388
    Likes Received:
    2,727
    Location:
    Germany
    I forgot to add something to this. Having shorter and strictly controlled breaks between rallies would have many positive side effects. @speCulatius brought up the same idea in a discussion we had via WhatsApp and the longer we thought about it, the more benefits we found. Maybe he or someone else finds time to start a dedicated thread for that. Could be an interesting topic to discuss in detail.
     
    #728 s_mair, Feb 8, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
    speCulatius likes this.
  9. vozer here

    vozer here Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2017
    Messages:
    561
    Likes Received:
    304
    Location:
    hanoi

Share This Page