Chinese Badminton

Discussion in 'China Professional Players' started by Justin L, Aug 31, 2013.

  1. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    I get your point and understand some of your merits but just that I thought avoiding getting drawn to meet a compatriot in the first round only, not the second round, isn't such a big deal. Equally, in the example you gave, the 32nd ranked JPN MS is happy to avoid his top-seeded fellow JPN player, and the chance of a non-JPN player meeting, say Momota, in R1 isn't that high.

    Moreover, I wonder how many players relish sending their fellow teammates home in the opening round as opposed to meeting any of the eight seeds, not to mention the concern and the interests of the coaches in having their players facing foreign opponents to beter gauge their progress and standard.

    The randomness of the draw isn't perfect either, that's why we have seeded players, and certain human intervention to address the issue of skewed or undesirable draws.

    Exactly, we can't please everyone but weigh the pros and cons and then come to a compromise acceptable to the large majority if not all the MAs and players, as the advantages and disadvantages cut both ways, your turn will come and you win some, you lose some. How fair is it if the consistent top four seeded players are from a given country and they only get to meet each other after eliminating most of the others time and time again? Let's give and take.

    Yes, these are not 'team' tournaments (for which there is only one team per MA), however, there is also no denying badminton is still to a considerable extent very much a nation-based sport - just look at how LCW invariably celebrated by pointing to the emblem on his shirt every time he wins a title or important match, and how Team Denmark rejoiced upon winning the Thomas Cup for the first time - unlike professional tennis where the players are generally more mercenary, so to speak; still, that doesn't mean they don't relish winning the Davis Cup and the Olympics for which the prize money is pittance as compared to any of the grand slams.

    Anyway, all in all, as you can see, my grouse has more to do with the rare and unusual situation of having four players from the same MA being drawn to face each other in the first round and in the same quadrant - that's too much.
     
  2. minions

    minions Regular Member

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  3. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Very valid points. Personally, I'd say the draw is still 'random enough' if done correctly (same nationality players only avoid each other if they're fewer than, say, 1/4), but I completely understand why you want it entirely random. I don't have a strong opinion either way, but as a competitor myself I know and very much hate the feeling of having traveled to a tournament only to play someone you've sparred with in training hundreds of times already. It's very annoying and can be frustratingas hell. As a bit of an idealist Im simultaneously on your side of wanting the draw to be entirely random without any infringements. I'd like to think there's no one right choice here, but it's certainly easier to go entirely random so no one can ever complain about any sort of bias (unless they're an irrational fan boy and believe in some conspiracy against their favorite player or pair whenever they get a tough draw)
     
  4. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    You're conflating two things here. One is a team competition where the team is your nation, obviously that is different from a completely individual tournament with no minimum or maximum number of participants for any MA.
    Pointing at your flag in an individual tournament seems needlessly nationalistic from my perspective, but I also didn't understand the uproar about JOJ 'disrespecting' the Malaysian flag on Iskandar's shirt back then. Maybe it's something you almost have to be born(&raised) into, like extreme religion.
     
  5. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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  6. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    That's just to make my point about the degree of nationalism or badminton being a nation-based sport; otherwise, the celebrations and elation would be more subdued, regardless of individual or team tournaments.

    Personally, I make a distinction between patriotism and nationalism, the latter is a double-edged sword, esp in its extreme form, dangerous as George Orwell warned in his essay "Notes on Nationalism".
     
  7. tbgoh288

    tbgoh288 Regular Member

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    Sad too. RIP Han Aiping. Just when I thought that ASY will be the youngest WC ever next year I read that Han won it at 17.
     
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  8. djake

    djake Regular Member

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    Funny you should mention this. I first started watching badminton in 1988.
    That year, another 17 year old Korean sensation Lee Young Suk upsetted Han Aiping in the All England. The Korean girl was strongly tipped for future stardom. Alas her star was eclipsed by a certain Susi Susanti and she retired a few years after that.
     
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  9. Banuka

    Banuka Regular Member

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    U missed lin guipu
     
  10. Gacon1234star

    Gacon1234star Regular Member

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    Ratchanok is the youngest champion for both junior and senior championships
     
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  11. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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  12. Gacon1234star

    Gacon1234star Regular Member

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    My mistake, i dont remember that she was born in february so at the time she had won championship she was already 18
     
  13. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    deciding how many players to seed is the compromise. you said it yourself...
    correct, and there's nothing preventing bwf from only seeding 4 players, or 2, or none.
    he's thanking them for paying all his bills. lcw even stated he'd be a nobody w/out bam.
    tennis players don't need their country to survive in their sport. they don't have a country to thank for their success. they don't spend the prior 18 month's peaking for it and working their lives around it. sure, it's nice to win it but win or lose it won't change their life like it will for badminton players.

    differing priorities due to the amount of $ involved.
     
    #2733 samkool, Oct 17, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
  14. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    increase the number of players from different countries

    a) that means putting in some limits of maximum number of players, say a maximum of two such as the Olympics.

    b) other countries (not just traditional badminton countries) raise their level of players. Therefore the pool of players is increased.

    c) increase the available slots in the draw (gets to be a bigger tournament)
     
  15. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Don't forget, we are talking about man-made laws for which nothing is set in stone, it changes with time and circumstances. So why stop at that compromise in having seeded players only? There's always room for other and further adjustments, that explains why certain rules and laws come and go as the sport evolves - for example, no same-nationality matchups in R1 was implemented more than once in the past, and it may come back again in the future.

    As for LCW pointing to his shirt emblem, it is not just a simple expression of thank-you to BAM, it's also an indication of "Malaysia Boleh" , a slogan which loosely translated means "Malaysia Can Do It!", a battle cry of a nation, and we all know the status of badminton in Malaysia and how they celebrated every important victory for which a national holiday will be declared by the state and the players concerned honoured with special titles and awards, such as Datukship as in LCW's case.

    Lastly, exactly, badminton is still largely a nation-based sport, esp in Asia, unlike professional tennis. Different sport, different tradition, history, growth, development, policies, systems and practices. And, right, as far as badminton is concerned, we know for a fact that (I can safely say) at least 90 percent of so-called full-time professional players cannot survive without their associations and state support.
     
    #2735 Justin L, Oct 18, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
  16. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Well, each of your suggestion is obviously a topic for fuller discussion, not sure if this is the right thread for it.

    As we know, the Olympic quota rule of a maximum of two players/pairs per NOC (MA/nation) goes against meritocracy and punishes nationality, particularly China after she captured an unprecedented clean sweep of golds at the London Olympics 2012.

    However, I can understand the Olympic Committee's desire to strike a balance between the different goals of the Olympics in keeping with its values and ideals.
     
  17. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Your own suggestion of separating same-nation players puts nationality over meritocracy though. As samkool pointed out, Japanese players would get to automatically avoid the #1 MS player through no merit of their own, and associations entering more players would benefit more from the rule than smaller associations. The further we discuss this the less I like the rule in the pro circuit :D
    It is valid in the Olympics, which have a small limit on the # of participants from any single nation, but the normal pro circuit should ignore nationality as much as possible.
     
  18. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Not quite, it's not a matter of either nationality or meritocracy, the former I qualified it as regards only R1 separation vis-a-vis putting four players in R1 against each other as well as in the same quadrant, that is, it's more to do with the drawing of lots whereas the Olympic quota decision emphasizing nationality limitation at the expense of meritocracy has nothing to do with the drawing of lots. Don't confuse the two issues.

    In other words, how is the drawing of lots placing four players from the same MA in the same quadrant in R1 based on meritocracy?
     
    #2738 Justin L, Oct 18, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
  19. Yoji

    Yoji Regular Member

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    The reason for same nationality draw, i believe, is to prevent dominance of a country in that discipline. Thats the first thing that comes to my mind.

    Though, if most players of the same nation is already in top 8, it wont matter. So, can only blame LD not being in top 8, for that matter. Looking at that draw, i feel its unlucky draw but you know there are many competitors from CHN and if they are all in different quadrants, their chance for winning the tournament will be bigger. or for other case.
     
  20. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    I'm afraid your initial argument is flawed, obviously. Next, please get your facts right before you butt in, our debate and my gripe is not about Lin Dan's draw alone.
     

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