Thanks for visiting us!

Badminton Central is a free community for fans of badminton! If you find anything useful here please consider registering to see more content and get involved with our great community users, it takes less than 15 seconds! Everybody is welcome here.

Click here for a FREE account!

Chinese pair reprimanded for tanking

Discussion in 'China Professional Players' started by kwun, Aug 28, 2003.

  1. viver

    viver Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,765
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    Not sure if any event can be considered individual event. True that only ranked players are invited to WC. But can an invited player participate in WC without the approval of the respective national badminton association? As far as I know, the invitation is addressed to the affiliated organization to send the nominated player - which has the decision whether to allow the player's participation or not. If that the case, I can't consider this an individual event.

    A lot has been said about the Chinese system. Probably other power houses operate similarly. Match fixing within players of same country is not new. Reprimands were issued before and things haven't change. Like somebody mentioned, it's probably an easy way out for IBF.

    I hope that other countries will do their best efforts to catch up with the power houses. If this happens then we will be able to see the players true abilities.
     
  2. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    Thnx for ur support.

    1. If IBF really thinking like this, I am just running out of word. In any sports, there's no champ forever. The defending champ could be out in the 1st round in 2nd event. And in badminton, that could be very obvious, too.

    2. I agree. Like I metioned before, it's more like a "sour grape" theory to me. Just someone being jealous about they are the champ. contender. If they are no name ones, just to advance to chip in more world ranking, I guess no one will really care about such issues any more.

    3. Some IBF members always complain the "power house" over dominate, and not good for badminton spread out the world. Come on, those player are good not because their nationality, just because they have good training program, and most important, they train hard. We can't strip their titles, and punish them via "imagination", to make other non-contender's happy. If politics have to greatly influence the sports, what's the point to "fight harder"??? I can just simply complain everyday, and digging out excuse to get better ranking, without going through hard training. Then, is that a good sign to "spread out sports???" Geezzz...
     
  3. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2002
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    T.O.
    i dont think the players should be punished too harshly...

    consider the player's view: tank and fear IBF, refuse and fear their coach. It's a lose-lose situation.

    Instead the reprimand should go to the team that instigate these tactics.
     
  4. woop.

    woop. Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Bedford, UK
    Couldn't agree more. Imagine the poor player who has been told to take it easy by the team coach. He's damned by the IBF if he does so, and damned by the coach if he gives it a proper shot.

    You have to come down on the coach and/or team for this sort of thing, not the individual players (or at least not only the players).
     
  5. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2002
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    T.O.
    exactly. It's not as though the players themselves benefit from tanking. I'm sure they'd love to have a second or even third match to show us what they got. Additional punishment isn't needed to convince them that its not a good thing.
     
  6. AKFT

    AKFT Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    216
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    USA
    I fail to see the big deal in this. Formular 1 drivers routinely "lose" to the more senior members of their teams. They call it team order.

    On the other hand, I have always felt that there is too much "team" in a sport that is fundamentally an individual sport.
     
  7. sjoe

    sjoe Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Messages:
    440
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    n/a
    Let me add for your arguement and I like LzBd to comment on this.
    In mid seventy, Liem Swie King in his 17 and peaks of his career met Rudy Hartono in his come back for the nineth times All England Single title. In that game Rudy had a blister in on of his foot and beat Liem in two stes to claim the title and broke the record for the only players to win 9th times All England.
    During that year Rudy had never won from King. We are talking about people who had played, watched and involved in Badminton more than 20, 30 years and don't tell me that you can't tell whether the game was genuine or not.
     
  8. viver

    viver Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,765
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    I remember another event, the 2nd World Championships held in 1980(??) in Jakarta. Rudy beat Liem Swie King in 2 sets. There were suspicions about the result since Rudy wasn't at his peak at that time.
     
  9. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US

    Never know I can draw this much attention. Ok, let me repeat my point of view:

    1. I agree. A lot of ref / staff are well experienced, and they might be able to find out some "weired" point in a game. However, can they tell about a sudden injury? Can they tell about how much stamina really left in the tank for each individual players? Most important, can they tell how serious the mental issue could effect the players (for example, a "border line" case call).

    2. In the 1st set, Yang Wei got called for a fault for serving, when they were leading 10:9. She was arguing, but the umpire kept his ruling. Do we know how much this call might effect this game? To some of us, might be a small case. However, for such high level competition, this could be a momentum shift right there. Such examples happen every single day, and I don't think i need to explain in detail.

    3. I totally respect their experience, and I am sure if we all sit down and judge various of cases, they should have much better chance to make the "best" call. However, they are more experience than me, or u, or any BFers, does not mean, they are "perfect". The best / most experienced detective still need the "solid proof" to arrest someone. I don't think anyone can just say, "arrest this guy, put him in jail, just because I have 20 yrs of experience", right???

    4. If all the staffs from IBF are so "perfect" and experienced, why a lot of their decisions are still debating by us? I am not saying, they have to make the perfect decision, I just say, no decision is perfect, or anyone is always right. Whatever u think, or he thinks, might just be totally different than me think. If u want to convience me, just using, blah blah blah say so, or we have 20 yrs of experience, seems not good enough.

    5. Put this way, if they did not lose the 2nd set in 10-15 min, but a little bit longer. What u will say? So, 3 pt in 15 min is no good, but if they can get 5 pt in 17 min should be good enough??? Let me bring back Gong Ruina and her oppoennt's case backagain. That poor girl lost in 8 min, should I say, "by my experience, she should not be that suck. she should get at least 2 more pts, and hold on for at least 10 min????" Don't forget, this poor girl lost several serve on her own, by serving out of bound. Should I claim, she did not "try hard" or at least, did not "try her best"??? Sure, someone might agree, but someone might not.

    6. Another case for "experience". Umpire, ref. in every sports might make wrong call / judgement every single day. Many referee making critical wrong calls in critical moments. However, they are not rookies, either. They might played, coached, and judged their respective sports for a total of 30-50 yrs. But why they still might make wrong calls? For example, NBA ref. might call a fault on a player, when there was actually no intention physcial play? Baseball umpire might throw a pitcher out of game, after he hit a batter, but the poor pitcher might just lost his ball control a little bit more? Obvious, they made calls / judgement based on yrs of experience, but we all know, they are wrong. So, 20, 30 yrs of experience can't be a "solid proof" in this case.
     
  10. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2002
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    T.O.
    From IBF's perspective, if the pair took longer to tank, that would have been good enough. IBF's attitude seems to be concerned about the entertainment value of a badminton match. Afterall, would you pay as much money to watch a tournament knowing that players would fake a few games rather than play their true best?
     
  11. jump_smash

    jump_smash Regular Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2002
    Messages:
    755
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    Valid comments, but there is a problem with the powerhouse strangle on Badminton.

    1. IBF meeting at Thomas and Uber cups where Indonesia and China voted to extend validation
    period for players to wait for playing for a different country.
    This was just because Tony G and others, what is the point but just to keep dominance -
    after all Hong Kong with Wang Chen, former world champ for China,
    Holland with Mia Audina, former Indonesia champion, could win Uber cup!

    2. Just look at Nations that have won Thomas, Uber and Sudirman cup - elite club.

    3. China and Indonesia have a vast pool of players compare to other nation, where
    some nations have hundreds of men's singles players, China has thousands, they
    can burn players to produce champions. In the late 70's and 80's they were
    still having players do depth jumps from ridiculous heights onto concrete floors!

    I have no disagreement about there will to win, great coaches and talented players,
    that have com from the countries, but some of the politicians and administrators
    are just creating duo-opolies
     
  12. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    I totally respect ur point of view.

    However, if u r a coach, and under the pressure to get a medal for ur nation. Will u like to see two of ur best pairs fight to deuce in every set, and the whole game last 3 hrs? Never have to say, how u going to explain, if the winning pair got injury, or run out of stamina in the next round.

    All the above, just under the some of the assumption, such as, "1 set determine all" theory by national team(s).
     
  13. Xero

    Xero Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2002
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    its strategy

    who cares about if they weren't really trying in the second game. At least this is not totally match fixing, they got to fight it out in the first didn't they?

    Anyways, we all know the Zhang/Yang can beat Gao/Huang, as they have before. In the Nation's and the coach's prospective they want to win the gold. So why would they want to make they're players battle until they're dead and lose in the next round? Maybe one team is in better form during the tourny.

    If any other nation calls this cheap well.. shaddup!! China can only do this because they have many good pairs that have made it that far.

    AND all you spectators crying about how you paid the money and how you want a more exciting game.. well then dont go watch games that are China vs China. Watch the Finals!! according to the Chinese Coach from an earlier article they dont do this in the finals.

    YOU People must Understand.. the game is the athelete's life.. its how he/she earns his/her living.. they won't deny their coach just for one mere game which they can win next time. If they deny the coach they'll just get replaced.. I'm sure there others in China that would like to play internationally too.
     
  14. Adel

    Adel Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,147
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Evanston, IL, USA
    A matter of perspective?

    Ah... can a year never pass without having to go through the same argument over and over again? The wonders of badminton and the evils of superpower domination...

    Forgive my audacity for proposing that this is siimply a matter of perspective. Done by a team you support, it's merely strategy; otherwise it's downright unscrupulous, damn those no-good, cheating SOBs.

    I love the argument that "everyone else does it too"... In fact, I welcome the day when my own kids will tell me, "But Mum, Matthew (and Mark and Luke and John and Tom and Jerry and David AND Goliath) cheated in a test and vandalized the school wall and stole from a classmate and bashed up three boys - so why can't I do the same?"

    After all, who was it that said if a million people say a stupid thing, it is STILL a stupid thing?

    Oh btw, if internal match-fixing is acceptable because it helps a team win... why blame the players and coaches when their fellow linesmen calls a shot that is in "out" and a shot that is out "in"?

    Don't worry, I see the point. There is a fundamental difference bwt a player who had to do three sets in an earlier match facing a formidable opponent who got a bye becoz his/her teammates threw the game and one who has to contend with a lying, cheating, no-good SOB of a linesman. Oh yes, a player that is mentally and physically tired out can *still* trash his opponent "if he is up to standard" but no matter how bright and energetic (and skillful) a player is, he can't beat a linesman who calls all his good shots out (hmm... would it be more appropriate to put a question mark or a period here?)

    When it boils down to the common denominator, it's just a matter of wanting to win, ain't it? So by the same token, shall we all look forward to the day when drugs are legalized, people have bionic body parts, athletes maim their opponents and the country with the highest gold-medal tally is invariably the one that hosts the games (or the one with the strongest pool of talent in whatever sport)?

    A ridiculous scenario, no doubt, but competitive sports has evolved to the stage whereby you can't really draw a line bwt black and white anymore.

    Life's a bitch, smoke pot.
     
  15. david14700

    david14700 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2002
    Messages:
    574
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    London
    reply

    I agree with what Adel says about it being a matter of perspective - some of the later stuff on her post sounds like she's already started on the pot :p

    Has anyone seen anything in the Chinese press about this? I'd be interested to know if the players themselves have said anything. Maybe it's all been hushed up over there.
     
  16. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    Re: reply

    There are more than 1 versions of reports in some other sites. Some indicates that Li yongbo already admitted he was using "strategy" in various matches, some indicates certain players are not happy by the "1 set match", but there are also plenty ones said they all denied about "internal matches".

    I can't tell which one is true, which one is not, since it's really down to the reporters, whether they want to "make up" an article, or they just understood the words differently.

    The only thing i can say is, no matter it's a 1-set, 2-set or 3-set match, the better one (real skill, or coach's decision, or future opponents' match, or mostly likely a combo of various factors) move on.
     
  17. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    One thing I need to point out, "we" are the audience, and we want the different "value" than the players and coaches.

    For us, of course, I want make every penny of my ticket worth. I want to watch a 5 hr intensive match between top elites, but the players and coaches might think different.

    Here are some examples from various sports:

    1. NBA: Many times, a team leading 30+ pts entering the last quarter will rest their starters. We call the last quater "garbage time". You will see all the bench and rookies playing low quality games. Why? The decision is there, why risk to injur ur all stars for non-sense? The best way, is to save ur best for the next game, and give some time to warm up the seldom use players.

    2. NHL: Same as NBA. If a team is leading by 5 goals in the last 2 min, they might rest their all-stars. Part of the reason is similar as in #1, and part is due to the losing team might lose "cool", and start to knocking around. This will further increase the chance to lose a valueable player.

    3. NFL: Entering last quater, leading by 30+ pts. Many coaches will use "running" game and "time out" to waste as much time as possible. Why can't they try to score more TD or at least FG? Why can't they put more fancy "airborne attack" (passing game) as they did before? Simple, u score fast, u give ur opponent more chance to score back. Why risk it?

    All the above show, the 2nd half or the last 25% of ur ticket means, "garbage time" or "cheating strategy" or "no guts" or whatever. Will u complain? If yeah, I guess everyday u will find tons of "cheating" teams / players / coaches from ESPN.
     
  18. woop.

    woop. Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2003
    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Bedford, UK
    surely it's a little different though. Taking the nba the team has still gone out, put itself ahead and only really opts to rest players when they feel they are suitably far ahead the game is won.

    Bringing it to premiership (english) football (since I don't know who is good in the nba at the moment) you certainly don't expect someone like Wolves to not even bother when they play ManU because they expect to lose. No, they give it their all and if ManU win it's by being the better team.

    That's fair play, and fair competition. That must be what the people who pay for the tickets are after. If ManU rest a few players at 3-0 after 70 minutes then fine, the team has still gone out, worked hard and won the game.

    The problem with the badders is it seems exactly the equivalent of Wolves going out with no intention of trying to beat the opposition. That is simply not right.

    (note: Wolves and Utd were used simply because they are pretty much at opposite ends of the table - I'm a Liverpool supporter)
     
  19. jamesd20

    jamesd20 Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Messages:
    5,436
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    Construction
    Location:
    Leeds, UK
    agree with LB,

    when manchester united played wolverhampton wanderers the other week, they played a weakened team (football), but won, then played their stronger team for southampton, and lost!!

    It happens all the time in football (soccer), especially in the champions league group stages, when a team has already qualified, they can be charged for unsportmanlike behaviour, but i dont know if anybody ever has.

    when teams lead 2-0 they often sub with 30mins to go, to weakened side. the chinese pair lost the first so may have rested themselves for later tournaments...maybe. my brother actually has told me he watched the match more than me and one of them he says was injured, the other was running around more, covering.

    By the way, what evidence did they use, as it was not televised, so no video evidence could be used.

    overall though if you can do it they why not.
     
  20. david14700

    david14700 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2002
    Messages:
    574
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    London
    Injury

    Aside from the general discussion on the morality of 'tanking' a match, the last post mentioned that one of the players was injured in that match.

    I've read elsewhere that Yang Wei, the player who was by far the weakest on the court that day, had a back injury and had to pull out during the next tournament. An injury that gets worse in the second game is not unusual. In fact, if you are injured and you come through a first tough game, you often see pairs collapse in the second. Now I'm not saying Yang and Zhang didn't lose the second game deliberately, they may have, but if they didn't and Yang had a real injury, then it seems that they have been treated unfairly.

    I think the IBF needs to come up with some pretty clear rules on what will constitute 'evidence' of deliberate losing. At least there should be some requirements like video evidence or something. But practically, it will be hard to prove.
     

Share This Page