Chinese pair reprimanded for tanking

Discussion in 'China Professional Players' started by kwun, Aug 28, 2003.

  1. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    The problem is, how u going to tell how hard a player / team tried just based on the final score or game duration?

    Let me put a laughable example. If a world elite playing against Chen Hong (MS #1), say he did not really want to compete, but he still be able to hold on for 10 min and get several pts. If me against Chen Hong, I guess no matter how impressive my shot (of course, to a club level player standard), how hard I try, I don't think I can score any point and don't think I will last for more than 3 min. If u talk about the final score, u can easily say, ok, the other elite player "tried" harder, since he got better score. But the truth is obviously the opposite. I am the one trying "harder" (at least mentally), but the result was limited due to skill, strenth, experience, etc.

    Tired about using Gong Ruina, and Zhang Ning (against Mia and Carmilla) example over and over. But they are all "live" examples of different level of elites' performance in a particular day. How we going to make conclusion on those???

    Also, Yang Wei was arguing about her serving fault, and Yang/Zhang fought for 45 min against the later world champ. I really don't think we can conclude them with "no intention of trying to beat the opposition". ;)
     
  2. fan

    fan Regular Member

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    I agree with some of your points of view, such as IBF cannot punish/condemn players simply because the players, form the observation of judges, are not ¡®trying.¡¯ More investigation should be done before putting the sign ¡®not ¨C trying ¡® on the players.

    But saying game fixing is equivalent to game strategy is inappropriate.

    Using NBA and NHL as examples. Why rest starters when the team has leading with 30+points or 5 goals with 3 minutes left? You have said it, the decision is there. The coach and players didn¡¯t deliberately try to alter the out come of the game. And don¡¯t think that the bench players will just play a ¡®not ¨C trying¡¯ game. Even they are not as good as the starters, they perform their best when step up to the court. That is sports. But when a player is ordered (assumption) to give up a game by his/her coach or organization, that is misconduct. That is cheating.

    Using NFL as an example, why the running back try to protect the ball and run out the time instead of trying to score for more touch downs? Because it is a part of football strategy. They are trained of doing that when practicing. Protecting the ball and managing the clock is just as hard as trying to score a touch down. Can you say they are cheating? No, but opposite, they create tremendous excitement just trying to protect the ball. You can¡¯t say the same about a fixed badminton game. They are totally different. You don¡¯t train performing a fixed game during a badminton practice, do you?

    At the highest level of competition, everyone try to get his or her edge by doing careful planning and game strategy. But game fixing shouldn¡¯t be one of them. From the coach and players perspective, winning is all they care about. That is why they go over the board from time to time. But when that happen, they are punished.

    As a badminton fan, I understand why coaches and players sometime cross the line. But I will not support and send a message to encourage this kind of behavior. Some even praise this kind of behavior. Sure, many coaches and players from all over the countries will cheat from time to time. But they are minorities. Badminton is not just played by the badminton powerhouses. They are many more countries obey and follow the rules. So which side will you support?

    This is a complicated issue and cheating in sports will continue to happen. But the message here is loud and clear, no game fixing in badminton, not two game, one game or 5 points. Game fixing in any way is not acceptable. Period.
     
  3. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    1. I never said "game fixing is 100% eq. to game strategy." What I said is, without solid proof, how could we conclude such issue is whether accident, strategy, or cheating, etc? And u seems agreed with this point already.

    2. I totally agree ur argument in NBA, NHL, and NFL. However, I was using all-star vs bench, high scoring offense vs low scoring conservative plan just to show "high quality exciting game type vs. low quality (not applied for NFL running) game type". Of course, the bench players also try hard, but u have to agree the entire game quality is nowhere close to when all stars compete with each other. The intensity and the excitement is no where near the "last shot buzzer beater" type. For fans like us, I am sure 99% of us will want to pay for the high-flying all-star due rather than some bench playing 50% of time games. Otherwise, why they pay $$$ to the all stars to play, they can just grab suck players like me to perform. Simple, right?

    3. I agree player should try hard. However, if something happened (say, a sudden injury during game play), or, a player knows today is definitely not his/her day in luck (super low ranking against top 5, Gong Ruina's example), or performance (Mia, Camilla against Zhang Ning in WC), why not take it easy and settle for the future? Let me use another example in NBA. Grant Hill injuried himself in playoff before he got traded from Piston to Magic. We all knew he was hurt, but he was trying to carry the team for 1 more shot. Then, after that, he can never play a full game for the past 2-3 yrs. Is that really worth that? I don't know. He was taking a chance, or, might not realize how serious it is, or, the injuries might not have direct relationship with each other. But what abut it is??? Surely not good for himself or his team or his fans.

    4. #3 is too long, let me continue here. Yang/Zhang quit in Ind. Open, due to Yang had a injury. The chinese team official claimed that Yang got this minor issue back in WC. So, let's think, this minor case might bothering her in that intensive match against Huang/Gao? Might be. If it is, can we still complain they did not fight???

    5. I am never a supporter for cheating. However, exactly as "fan" indicated, they are not the same case. Therefore, without enough evidence to indicate which is which, I don't think we can draw the conclusion quickly.
     
  4. Xero

    Xero Regular Member

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    Thats no COMPARISON... thats just stupid.. MANU AND WOLVES ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT TEAMS.. but we're talkin about CHINA PLAYING CHINA.. IF YOU WEREN'T STUPID then you might have notice they're the same team. IT's TEAM Strategy. AND its not like that the coaches are commandin one side to lose.. they always play the first set.. but they just save strength for after
     
  5. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    calling names is very much against the spirit of this forum. so in the future please refrain from doing that... thanks. ;)
     
  6. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    I don't agree calling names, insulting others posters. He/she may have an opinion not same as yours and this difference makes this forum interesting. Please do discuss using your arguments properly. No name calling please!

    This issue is not a new one. I believe it will continue and there does not seem any way to prevent it - unless other countries produces players of similar abilities as the Chinese ladies.

    Also, badminton players are not self sufficient. They can't survive solely from badminton. If they could, I'd think this issue would be minimized.
     
  7. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    1. Please show some respect to others, even though, you might disagree with his/her idea. No need to use very offensive words in ur arguement. The one shouts the loudest, might not necessary the one got the best answer.

    2. Can't really agree with ur idea. Ppl (including me) using different examples, not to show whether there's a "internal conflict" or a "team vs others" issue. We just say, there MIGHT be "strategy" involved in sports, regardless who the opponents are. Of course, none of us got solid proof for whether certain cases are really the way as we thought, we brought this up for discussion and just under our own assumption / observation.
     
  8. jump_smash

    jump_smash Regular Member

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    I wholeheartedly agree, respect is paramount in not just Badminton, but other sports.
    Champions are ones that limit or eliminate emotions.

    My problem is pair A/player A throwing against their countrymen in pair B/player B in finals, but semis and quarters, where the winner from the other semi/quarter has a tough match, then faces the other winner which has had a easy match.

    This is the case with some countries sending bigger squads to tournaments, including sparring partners.
     
  9. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    I agree ur concern, however, "luck" is part of the game as well.

    Put this way, let's say A, B, C, D all from different nations. In 1st round, A beats B using 10 min, 15-0, 15-0, while C bests D using 3 hrs, 17-16, 16-17, 17-16. Obviously, A will have much more stamina left when he's facing C. However, should we complain, and if A beats C in the next round, we complain "it's not fair"??? Of course, we can't. Then, why we complain about the chinese team (remember, they fought for 40+ min, against the top rank pairs)? Yeah, there's might be rumors about "strategy", but that's just our assumption.

    Let's not forget about the facts:

    1. Yang / Zhang fought against Ra/Lee in earlier round. Should they complain they met the toughest pair (besides chinese ones), while other facing easy opponents?

    2. Yang / Zhang fought against the future champ. for 40+ min. Any time, when u fought against the champ. over 40+ min, I can't say that's "easy task".

    3. Draw is part of the game. Someone might face easier opponent or get a workover by luck. Someone might face tough opponents every single round. However, skill is the most important issue. The true champ should not focus on "who i am going to against tomo" everyday, but think "no matter who's on the other side, I will win".

    4. Peter Gade beats K. Jonassem in 2nd round of Singapore open in 42 min (15-3, 15-12), beats Peter Rasmussem in 3rd round in 45 min (15-5, 15-6). Both players are better than Gade record vise. How come no one ever complain about Denmark team for "protential giving ranking pt. for Gade"???

    5. Obvious, Yang / Zhang were against better ranking players and lasted longer, and scored more points (referring to #4). Therefore, if they can assume "chinese players didn't try", why can't we assume "they just jealous about chinese pairs got the champion, and being 'sour grape'"???
     
  10. Xero

    Xero Regular Member

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    Sorri

    But I'm sure most people here are badminton players too. Why do they keep looking at this event in a spectator point of view. Wanting the players punished? Why don't they see it in the players point of view?

    Imagine that you're a chinese player whose been training for Badminton from young for most of the day and only getting less education than most people. Naturally, Badminton becomes your only way of earning a living. If you were to be suspended, wat are you goin to do for a living?

    Then, when the coach tells you that if you play a teammate you only play the first set and the loser of that set will give up. (as Li Yong Bo states) Why not? You have an equal chance at the next tourny if you lose. But if you denied your coach, theres many other quality players in China too which can replace you. A simple decision.

    And I think when the coaches explain this to their players it is told to be a mere strategy so they assist they're team mates in the the next round.

    Once again I apologize for my disrespect, just this talk about how a country is cheating just because they have players playing each other and that the coaches tell them to play a 1 set match to save energy for they're team mates made me angry. :eek:

    Or it might have been wat LB said too.. just luck..
    Maybe theres no match fixing..
     
  11. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    The most important thing is respecting other peoples' ideas and opinions. Often they don't match ours and this is not a problem. Present your arguments and if they accept fine if not, don't get emotional. You also have your opinion about this subject and it won't change until somebody can present strong arguments.

    BF have participants of diverse nationalities and backgrounds. You can't expect all the participants to agree on certain issues. Each person's opinion is based on education, culture and personal experiences, I think. So, be patient and understandable towards fellow participants. This way you'll also helping them understand you better.
     
  12. dlp

    dlp Regular Member

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    I am surprised people are still trying to debate "if" China fix matches. Any experienced spectators know this to be a fact, and expect the matches to be fixed. The debate should be how/if this can be stopped or punished.

    The fixing has been going on for years, it was just never so blatant as at the worlds.

    In the womens game the only way I can see the monopoly being broken is if top chinese players move away and play for other countries more.

    Perhaps badminton should move to being a more individual sport, like tennis. In tennis players play for themselves and largely fund / train themselves (of course there's more money) rather than their country. The downside of that is that the olympics are relatively unimportant to tennis players and fans.
     
  13. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    1) 1992 All England mens singles final was a great example:D

    2) or other countries raise themselves to the standards that the chinese women have set in recent years.
     
  14. other

    other Regular Member

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    ?? What's wrong with the monopoly? Its not as if they're a company. They are the ones who worked to get there, they were helped by chinese coaches and training ( i guess) so why should they change countries? Good on them that they are so strong.
     

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