Court hire rates--is badminton an expensive sport?

Discussion in 'General Forum' started by Zohar, Oct 7, 2020.

  1. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    You're tackling the problem from the wrong direction: Especially for a non-profit, start with revenue and costs. Even a non-profit can change its revenue and costs by adding/removing services, using a different pricing structure, getting more or fewer customers. In any case, revenue and costs must match. The precise pricing structure follows from that, and not the other way round.

    Your proposal would lower court fees, especially for players who play much. Unless these players start playing significantly more (unlikely), the revenues of the club will decrease. The club must somehow make up for this:
    • Decrease costs somehow (see discussion above)
    • Maybe you playing more attracts more members
    • Increase costs for one-time booking
    A proposal that just decreases revenue without decreasing costs is disingenuous. If a proposal decreases total revenue, then it must also decrease total costs by the same amount or more.
     
  2. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    This is remarkably similar to the first statement you posted: Their hall costs (excluding staff) are 60k NZD. Staff cost is 40k NZD, and their court fees amount to 110k, so they're actually making a good profit both form court rental fees and other sources – or made it in 2019; 2020 is probably not as rosy for them. Going by the 2019 numbers, they could drop average fees down to 13 NZD/h and still make a profit, albeit barely.

    However, the club may decide to invest the surplus somewhere else; maybe get better coaches or make more advertisements.

    These guys look suspect, because their financial statement is essentially meaningless. They write Full financial statements available on request, so maybe you can try that. If I'm reading this right (and I only had two semesters of economics, so I may not be) they too have a surplus, although not as giant as Hutt. But whether this surplus is related to the court rental or e.g. shop sales is absolutely not visible by this sparse statement.
     
  3. Zohar

    Zohar Regular Member

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    I edited my previous post, and replaced the wnba's link with:
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qYg_m5NLnH7btjX3Ym9DEHoVmy_9NHt3
    which might be more detailed.

    Let me clarify what I meant. I didn't mean to simply drop the court hire rate. In fact, I thought to leave it the same and simply call it a casual rate.
    The idea was to take advantage of the free courts, which I currently assume are empty since the rates are too high--at least, this is my reason for not playing more (besides finding people to play with..). Then, by getting a deal on a bulk of hours, the center guarantees more income, and I start playing more.

    Previously, I mentioned starting to play 3hr/week for the usual rate 25$/hr. After realizing that it's going to cost me 1750$/year, it's not going to be sustainable. For example, up until recently, in 2020, I played only once a week in a club for 350$/year, more sitting down than playing, totally feeling like I'm wasting my time (now, I found someone to play some singles with to enrich that). What about other clubs? I started to become picky, and they aren't worth my time except one of them, which is too early for me.

    If I would be offered a deal of 100hr for $500, I might even buy two of them. 200 people doing that would cover the $100K total yearly revenue. Based on my previous peak time hour resource analysis, the center's booking can accommodate that and finally start using the courts efficiently. Even if I'm the only one interested in a deal, it still seems more income to the center rather than nothing (and empty courts)--a win-win.
    If the two extreme cases are feasible, then their interpolation (in between cases) should be feasible as well.

    It goes without saying: for the graveyard hours, suggest a fee of $1/hr only to fill up the courts. Based on demand, the rate would increase. This would attract more players and remove some from the prime hours--where again, a sudden shift can be stopped by increasing the rate.

    I don't know, I feel like I'm reinventing the wheel, and my suggestions are pretty trivial. My guide lines are also straight forward:
    1. I don't see any reason for badminton to be more expensive--or less satisfying--than any other sport. I should get my money worth.
    2. There shouldn't be empty courts--it's a lose-lose.

    Maybe I should put it differently. If I happen to pay 3% of the total court hire rates ($100K), then I expect to play 3% of the total hours of all courts that the center offers. For example, 8 courts * 7 days * 4 peak hours = 224hr. 3% of these are 6.7hr. Does this make more sense?
    Another perspective: dividing the $100K by 224hr = 9$/hr.
    And this is a very rough calculation, where I believe that a deal for 5$/hr should be feasible since we have more than 4hr a day.. But even 9$/hr sounds better than 25$/hr: start with a deal of 50hr for $500 and see how it goes.
     
    #23 Zohar, Oct 9, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  4. Zohar

    Zohar Regular Member

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    I have another idea for the first club that I mentioned (Hataitai, 8 courts).
    I rarely see all 8 court occupied simultaneously, usually it's 6 at most.
    How about a dedicated flat rate for courts 7-8, say 20$/week per person.

    It would work similar to the club: first come, first serve. There's a whiteboard with a grid. Each grid represents a game. People come and write their name down in the next box. When it's full (4 people in the club, 2 in our case), they go and play a set up to 21, and go back to the queue.

    Since these two courts are barely used, it can only add to the current revenue.
    From the player point of view: the club usually has 4 courts for doubles, 2.5hr in a specific time of the week. Two courts full time for people who come spontaneously--any time of the day--sounds luxurious; would probably work as well with only one court.

    Basically, my suggestion is currently, you have 8 courts which you don't use efficiently. Split the hall into two. Keep using 6 courts the way you've done so far--one of the other centers has only 6 courts, and it's the most successful one. For the 2 courts, manage them flat rate following my suggestion.

    --

    Unrelated. Earlier, you mentioned something about community service, promoting the sport, and kids. I didn't want to get into it, but:
    - I expect kids to be managed like a flock of ducks. 10 of them train in one court, splitting the price. I don't expect two kids to play singles--their parents probably can't afford it, and it shouldn't fall on me.
    - Division training, coaching, etc.: either there's some sponsored talent, or people should pay for it. Again, shouldn't fall on me.
    - The store: it should make enough profits to sustain itself. Otherwise, I don't see how it's related or why it's needed for court hire.
    - Currently, the court hire is managed by a system, with minimal supervision. Whichever the case is, I don't think it needs $200K personal.
    - In summary, the cost of maintaining the hall should be less than, say, $80K, and all the rest should be able to maintain itself without relying on me. Otherwise, why won't I just open a competing hall that purely rent courts--like the squash place. By the way, I sent the squash center an inquiry (how does it work), but in the meantime, you can see their offer:

    http://www.clubk.co.nz/squashwellington/
     
    #24 Zohar, Oct 9, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  5. scamp

    scamp Regular Member

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    In the UK the court price for one hour ranges between £10-£18 per hour depending on region. I wouldn't mind the price if the average court was any good. Many floors are slippery, the walls are white and the nets may be hung outside or inside the court lines. Such facilities I describe as rubbish for a dynamic sport. Anyone expecting a decent level of badminton to be played at these places is clueless. I've lived in many areas of the UK and unfortunately this low standard is commonplace.
     
  6. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    What you want is a cut-throat commercial center: There, you'll have a pure exchange of money and services.
    Non-profits have an obligation to society and the sport.

    If you have to share a court with 9 other people, badminton will be boring. The kids will rarely get to play even doubles or triples. Injuries will be more common. Most of the kids will switch to other sports or just sit at home and play the latest smartphone game. The vast majority of the badminton community wants to spread the sport and bring joy to every player. This means that yes, as a full member of a non-profit club you will generally be subsidizing some of these efforts.

    In the long term, it is even in your selfish interest to have more kids train and play. Because today's kids will be your (then fully paying) training partners in 10 or 20 years.

    In a similar fashion, even a store operating at a slight deficit may be beneficial to the whole community. Note that these stores generally rake in some profit.
    For legal and practical reasons, you likely need someone in the hall who is ultimately responsible, and who introduces new players, deters theft&vandalism, performs cleaning and the like. Given that you are unwilling to volunteer for this job, they need to pay somebody. This person doesn't cost any more when they also man the store.

    Many clubs want to enable high-level badminton, too. High-level players draw more players (because everybody wants to play and train with them), and many people like to watch high-level badminton. Therefore, the many club members in Germany subsidize high-level team matches, training, tournaments and the like.


    Note that in the financial statements of the three centers in NZ you posted, these subsidies are extremely small to non-existent; the vast majority of the court revenue is spent on the hall and employee costs, and the rest is profit. Most German clubs would subsidize far more for the general good (but in exchange also get virtually free halls, coaching courses and other benefits from the state).


    If you don't want to contribute to society or the sport, you can find or found a club that is bare minimum: Just the courts, no supervision (or supervision shared with many other sport installations), no coaches or even people explaining the rules, flat rates independent of income, players having to bring heating/light equipment themselves etc. . However, unless such a club manages to leech from surrounding clubs, it is likely to die out quickly, as it will struggle to attract new players, and be a hotspot for general rudeness, theft, and vandalism.
     
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  7. Zohar

    Zohar Regular Member

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    By the way, in terms of terminology, I refer to the place as a badminton hall/center. By club, I refer to a "class", a group that meets regularly to play.

    About the kids: like when I go to a club, and I share a resource with someone. We don't all play at the same time. Same for the kids. By the way, when I play the club, I'm practically sharing a court with 9 other people, and yes, I'm bored. But I'm not a kid, and I'm paying--see my analogy below to capitalism vs socialism.

    But I said before expressing my opinion on such matters: this isn't what I want to focus about because making sense or not, this is something that I'm probably not going to change. Therefore, I prefer to focus on and get feedback for my more practical ideas that have more chance to be accepted.

    Another point to note is people like me, who find badminton not satisfying enough--I don't get enough for what I pay--and considering often moving to other sports. I assume that some have done that already, and I think it hurts the sport more than anything else. Moreover, the fact that the sport is so lowkey and it's almost impossible to find singles partners, and I even reconsider playing singles myself--it's just too expensive--tremendously hurts the sport.

    Your opinion on the matter reminds me opinions against capitalism, where one would prefer to hold back development for some pure idealism. From what you say, I assume you view squash centers, for example, as selfish, cutthroat businesses. You also implied that associations are expected to adopt a socialism business model. Granted, you raised points in favor of supporting the community, but personally, I don't think they outweigh my points, and they actually share the same drawbacks (everyone doesn't play enough, courts are empty).
    But again, no point getting into that since it's not going to change and as you said, it's probably not a significant part of the expenses.

    ---

    Going back on track, my current offers are:
    1. Give a package deal 50hr for $500.
    2. Dedicate a court or two at all times for a flat rate of 20$/week.
     
    #27 Zohar, Oct 9, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  8. llrr

    llrr Regular Member

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    I think you need to join your association's board and present these ideas, if you truly care and are that interested in promoting the sport in NZ.
     
  9. Zohar

    Zohar Regular Member

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    I thought to get some feedback first before sending them these ideas.
     
  10. Zohar

    Zohar Regular Member

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    I got a reply from the squash center:

    Looks like they make it work. You can actually see the booking:

    http://www.clubk.co.nz/bookings/

    It's rather empty. So, either people book last minute or just come spontaneously. Whichever the case, seems like it's not too busy.

    I think I need to give squash another go.
     
  11. Zohar

    Zohar Regular Member

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