Did Lin Dan give up the final?

Discussion in 'German Open / All England / Swiss Open 2005' started by Mag, Mar 14, 2005.

  1. economet

    economet Regular Member

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    I was not there, but at German Open and observed several all Chinese matches. My impression is without exemption that the players who deserved it won.

    The outstanding example is the match Chen Hong vs. Chen Jin.
    In addtion, Chen Hong and Lin Dan have already 10 tournaments in their ranking points. So the difference will be minimal, assumed that Lin Dan should have won the finals.

    Last, but not least we all know Lin Dan's statement in 2003 when WC was held in NIA. Lin Dan said that he could be the real winner of WC 2003. In a finals match Lin Dan will never give up again as he is now accepted as the No. 1. That's sure. So let's stop discussing on this "conspiracy" theory.
     
  2. Anatolii

    Anatolii Regular Member

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    i, all feelings aside, don't feel that there was any prior planning to that final match.

    i never noticed any major change/ difference in lin dan except perhaps in the last few points of the match when i couldn't imagine how lindan would be able to level up the score, he didn't seem to bother giving his best anymore.

    as some of you point out, the only possible motive for a set-up was for ? .. ranking purposes. that doesn't make sense, you answered yourselves.

    so is the mystery for real?

    what did that article from sina.com say anyway? ken, you told us to think again..
     
  3. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

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    Of course I was surprised that Lin Dan should lose so convincely to Chen Hong in the second and third games. It did cross my mind whether Lin just simply gave the crown to his good friend and same Fujian native as perhaps a "wedding present", but on closer examination, it seems unlikely.

    Remember Lin has beaten all the others, some excellent players as well, before the Final. Therefore, in my earlier post, I concluded that it must be the injuries he has sustained in the process, particularly during his SF rubber encounter with WCH, that has led to his downfall, especially when he has to meet a past AE Champion and compatriot who knows a great deal about his game. But someone attributed all these (the bandages, tapes on the knees)as bluff to camouflage their real intentions.

    Now if Ken's report that Lin has admitted to being really tired after the German Open, then his loss to Chen should be no fluke nor fixed. I looked at my tape-recording of that match again last night and was simply marvelled by the fluidity and ease that Chen managed to annihilate Lin with fast and sharp clears and drops to all the four corners of the court, punctuated by 'body-hugging' net plays and his effective smash. Lin was made to scurry madly around to try to retrieve them and his mobility was actually relatively slower than before. Indeed Chen was in masterful control!

    Is the match really fixed? If you think so, consider some of the following points that some posters have enumerated:

    1. LYB would prefer Lin to win since Lin is his favourite trainee (so I thought it was reported).

    2, Scoring additional points for Chen to ensure his participation in this year's World Championships seems to have little effect or impact. Maybe World Ranking for seeding purposes would, in the sense that a higher ranked player can avoid meeting the better players in the earlier rounds.

    3. If Lin intended the AE crown as a wedding present to his good friend Chen, he could also give him a more personal gift with his AE winnings.

    4. For prestige, WR and international tournament purposes, a professional player would always want to stay on top. I think Lin is no exception as the World no.1.

    5. On a more personal basis, I'm sure Lin would want to win to prove how good he really is to his girlfriend Xie Xingfang, who became the best women singles player of the AE tournament. Chen and his fiancee, Gao Ling, were the golden couple instead.

    So, I have to conclude that there was never any foul play. Chen won on merit and thoroughly deserves his AE crown! :D
     
  4. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    since so many here have gave their opinions, so here's mine, and is very similar to that of twobeer. I dont think LYB had instructed LD to lose but i'm sure LD had kept LYB updated about his physical condition, especially if it's injuries related. I'm also sure LYB likely gave LD advice and possible options to LD. I think this is an appropriate conduct of any coach, to give the best advice to his/her athletes, especially a star athlete.

    If LD didnt value about this year WC, LD would had gone for broke or at least go all out and try to wrap the match up in 2 games. Maybe the pain had gotten worst and LD may had chosen the less riskier option. The score of the 3rd game is quite indicative what choice had LD had chosen. Is this fixed? It's hard to say but i doubt LYB really told LD to fold the match for WC seeding reason.
     
    #24 cooler, Mar 15, 2005
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2005
  5. Fook90

    Fook90 Regular Member

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    Chen Hong has been up on that stage four times already. He has to win the championship title because if he lose it again, that would be his third defeat in what is considered as the world's most perstigious badminton tournament.

    And to prepare Chen psychologically for the upcoming world championship and also in terms of seedings, he needs the ranking points more than Lin Dan whose first position isn't really threatened by the other players. Frankly speaking, I dare not believe anyone in the world currently can beat Lin Dan 15-2. Therefore, I believe the match was pre-fixed.
     
  6. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

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    You seem to have too high a regard for Lin Dan. ;) Lin has been brought down to earth before and this time by a victor who is no less inferior technically and knows his game plan better than others. And as you've put it, Chen wants to prove a point, having been in the AE Finals four times before, but winning only once. So that desire to win must have been a very strong self-motivating factor for him.

    I think we have seen in the past that no matter how good a player is, he can't win them all, unless he is superhuman. Remember, Lin had been stretched to the rubber twice in this AE. Chen himself was once a supreme singles player but he still succumbed. And if Lin is injured, he is all the more prone to defeats by even lower ranked players than Chen Hong.

    Let's see whether Lin can rebound from this defeat and when, and whether his injuries are all made up to fool us. :)
     
  7. 2love2live

    2love2live Regular Member

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    It's sad if it was pre-fixed, but if it's pre-fixed, why did't they fix a closer score? I would say at their level it would be easy-piecy to fool those amateur eyes like mine:p :D with a seamingly more heated competition.

    So I tend to believe it was not pre-fixed - whatever.

    Top players make mistakes too, and mistakes can be caused by anything - things we don't know.

    Don't know whether anyone follows the board game 'Go' competitions, the un-beatable Korean Lee Chang-ho was beaten by Zhou He Yang, a Chinese top player in their first game, because Lee made a mistake in 'Endgame' or 'Shou guan - 收官', or 'Shuban' at which he is supposed to be the best in the world.
     
    #27 2love2live, Mar 15, 2005
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2005
  8. dlp

    dlp Regular Member

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    If Lin Dan was injured they would have simply pulled him out, with future events in mind.

    If they can get Lin and Chen Hong to 1 & 2 rankings before the worlds they will be seeded in separate halfs which is preferable.

    The sad thing is that because of past match fixing we can never really enjoy an all chinese match without the thought entering our heads,... am I being cheated?
     
  9. jamesd20

    jamesd20 Moderator

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    It is very simple IMO. I dont believe there was any match fixing.

    Anybody who has seen chen play in WC 2003, OG2004, an other matches previousley will see he is a different player to what he was before.

    Previousley he was very nervous, made many unforced errors in tight situations. His net play became poor. His defence was really bad (for a top player). He often played well in the first 1.5 sets, but then became overly reliant on his attacking smash and netplay. Shon seung mo in 2 cases knew exactly what to do. He onlyhad to do two things, move in for net kill, and move side to side for smash. At one point in OG 2004 QF he kill the shuttle from the net after CH 1st return.


    Watch him this AE I think you can see all those weaknesses were corrected. His defence was a match for bao, Lin, and LCW. His nerve held, and there was very few unforced errors. He stuck to his game plan unerringly, even in sight if victory. He had variety of strokes, played more drops. LCW was especially caught out by this. almost everytime he was expecting smash when lifted, but he became off balance when a drop/clear came. he was frequently wrong fotted by CH serve being flicked, and his pushes off the net.

    Lin had the speed to retrieve this play in the first set. But when he lost his quick speed, chen got his attacks back, and made no errors. Lin had nothing to give. He couldnt attack (CH good defence), he couldnt counter (CH consistent in control), he could not rally (couldnt be in control, no ideas to be in control himself.)

    CH simply didnt give him anything to go at. He is a Superb athlete, with superb techniqu in footwork and strokes. If he (as seems so this tourney) has got over his mental stability, and defence. Then he is the unbeatable one. Lin has only his confidence+speed, who would bet could play at the top the longest? (hint: CHEN HONG)


    Reading Andycmg post about why he beat BCL, the answer is the same, Bao was too quick in first, Chen kept to the plan, gave no chances, and he seems to win without doing anything different.
     
  10. silvia

    silvia Regular Member

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    Chen hong won because he played better than lindan, i watched the final , seriously chen hong really deserved to win it...Lindan is no superman, he can lose it too, he is nt unbeatable....to say lindan purposely lose to chen hong, or there is a team order, its v unfair to chen hong, we shldnt take away his credit......
     
  11. 02011953

    02011953 Regular Member

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    I just cannot believe the kind of mad hand-wringing to explain Lin Dan's defeat. 'He injured his leg'; 'he had strapping at his wais'. 'He was ordered to throw the match.' 'He threw it because there's no point aggravating his already injured back.' What flight of fantasy and nothing related to how Lin Dan and Chen Hong actually performed.

    Even before the finals, LD had been playing 'indifferently' by his standards. I speculated that top players get off days and others are getting to know how to stop him. I also opined after the SF that Chen would not want to repeat the F loses to Hafiz and Gopi.

    So here it is 1) He wasn't in top form 2) He under-estimates his opponents - does not respect them 3) His form deserted him suddendly after set 1. 4) He pannicked when 3) happened, 5) He did not play percentage when he needed it. 6) Chen was more determined to win.
    I watched the match. How he lost: 1) He was digging out drop shots and many did not get over; 2) forehand smashes from his left back corner to CH's left forecourt went wide. 3) He lost his anticipation and could not get to some drop shots, smashes or feints or was there but too late. 4) He rushed shots which missed or lofted short for Cheng to kill. 5) The worse the score, the more he pannicked and the worse he played. 6) Chen played his solid game: moving him back forth, side to side, high and low; LD rushed around mostly missing or mishitting. 7) He was shaking his head incredulously at Chen's ability to outplay him, and frowned in surprise at his errors. This is not what you expect a faked loser to do. 8) Lin had few serves as Chen scored 5-10 points in one service in both sets 2 and 3.Noticed how quick those sets were?
    There, do we have at least 30 points for C Hong to win legitimately without conspiracy theory or illness excuse? Y[​IMG]
     
    #31 02011953, Mar 15, 2005
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2005
  12. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    yes, in this case, evidence isn't strong enough to suggest fixing. It just that china (LYB) had a past record of these tendency and therefore, such speculation are expected when involving 2 competing chinese pairs, whether it's MS or WS.

    Yes, CHong does deserve the credit of beating LD, especially in such convincing manner but we also know that these 2 are top players and with LD losing by wide margin like 15-5 and 15-2 does raise some speculation. ;)
     
    #32 cooler, Mar 15, 2005
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2005
  13. Morten

    Morten Regular Member

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    I talked to a former chinese top player in my club and he said they had quit fixing the matches. He knows a lot of the players in the chinese national center and therefor statement should be true...
     
  14. Qidong

    Qidong Regular Member

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    No wonder there were so many 3 games matches between 2 Chinese pairs in AE and German Open which was rare in the past. Good for the sport. :)
     
  15. jamesd20

    jamesd20 Moderator

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    Many people have been saying this since OG2004. I also think there is credibilty to it. Just watch the games and you can see they are trying their best.

    In AE2005 It semed like it was the opposite of win 1 win all, since Chen bt Bao after losing first set, Gao/Huang beat Yang/Zhang after losing first set, and Chen Bt Lin after losing first set!
     
  16. jkusmanto

    jkusmanto Regular Member

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    Since you guys give your opinion. Here is mine :

    It is not like Formula 1. The first driver has to win, the second driver is a "spare part", like Schumacher and Barrichello.

    So, I don't think it was a team order from LYB.
    I don't believe it is a conspiracy.
    CH won just because he played better than the young LD. He deserved to win the title. Since the first match, he played very consitance.
    In the other side, LD is not unbeatable, even peoples named him as a "super Dan".

    After so long waiting, CH has an "hungry" of title. He also want to prove that he is one of the best. Psychologically he will fight for his honour, and maybe also for the upcoming WC.
     
  17. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    yes, again the mental aspect is what drove CH to succeed. I think CH was more mentallay prepared (have a game plan) to handle LD.
     
  18. Schneider

    Schneider Regular Member

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    I also think there is something not quite right about that final I mean, Lin Dan completely dominated the first game showing clear signs that he was fit enough and was determined to win. But like alot of people said Chen Hong didn't really change his game in the second game yet Lin Dan was getting beaten badly making alot of easy mistakes. It's really sad if it was fixed because Lin Dan deserved that title.:(
     
  19. Brave_Turtle

    Brave_Turtle Regular Member

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    Are you saying CH doesnt deserve it?? You should consider that he went in the final for the 4th time and how he played trough out the whole tournament.

    He also had one of the hardest draft Vs Bao Vs Shon Vs Lin.

    Give him some respect for god sake! I just watched the 2nd and 3rd set and Chen Hong was just a better player than Lin. (Love his jump smash)

    By the way WCH also beat Lin in the 2nd set however lost the third one (15-1). Why can it happen to Lin Dan?

    CH deserve all the credit and I'm so happy that he won against someone like Lin Dan.
     
  20. Wizbit

    Wizbit Regular Member

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    I think Lin Dan lost it rather than Chen Hong won it. As long as Lin Dan gets some rest, I think he'll be back on form for later this year. In the mean time, a rejuvinated Chen Hong and consistent Bao can hold the fort.

    I did mention that Chen Hong looked hungrier and leaner for the title, full credit to him for coming back. Chen's rallying game in my opinion is nowhere as good as Bao or Lin Dan. In fact during the Bao vs Chen match, Bao exposed a lot of Chen's weakness. Bao should have took that third game from Chen..why he did not, maybe because he was tired :confused: I would consider Bao's defence to be very good, it's only the smash at the body that really troubles him.

    One clue to how Lin Dan plays, I think he was quoting as saying that it didn't really matter as long as the title was China's ;):rolleyes: end of story
     

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