Elbow movement during smash

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Udbhav, Aug 5, 2019.

  1. Udbhav

    Udbhav Regular Member

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    While smashing, should the elbow of hitting hand the shoulder of hitting hand and the shoulder of the non hitting hand make a straight line ( ie. should they be at 180°)
    Or
    Should the elbow be brought forward while hitting the smash(ie. should the elbow be brought near the ear before extending our arm towards the shuttle) and thus breaking the 180° angle between the shoulders and elbow.
     
  2. sautom88

    sautom88 Regular Member

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    I feel that if your elbow is almost straight at the impact point that will be the most powerful smash. However most often that is not possible due to flight of the shuttle and your body position. Maybe not a straight line (180^) but as straight as possible. Just swing as hard as you can but the shuttle impact should be slightly in front of your shoulder/head and a bit lower than maximum height of swing
     
  3. Budi

    Budi Regular Member

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    I think its the 2nd one.
    Hitting power come from swing speed + racket weight momentum + string repulsion.

    Swing speed can be gained from shoulder movement + elbow movement + wrist movement. If one can use all 3, it will resulting powerfull punch.

    Another bonus on hitting is body weight. If one hitting with adding his body weight forward, it will also add some power on hitting. The reason why we need to goes behind the shuttle for optimum stroke. The same reason why jump smash is very powerfull as it add some speed when hitting as player body falling down.
     
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  4. Udbhav

    Udbhav Regular Member

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    I am going to present 3 youtube videos depicting the smash. Please tell me which is the correct method :-
    1.In this video anna rice uses the elbow and brings it over the ear

    2.This video is a slow motion of professionals smashing

    Notice that the players in above video tend to hit the shuttle more on the side trying to keep and their elbow and shoulders in a straight line and bend their body to one side.

    So,I want to know which technique is correct ie. bringing the elbow all the way towards the ear and then above it (First video) or keeping the elbow in a straight line with shoulders(little bit of moving of elbow towards the ear).
     
  5. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    Both are correct - you have the wrong reference point of the ear. The most effective is when your elbow points up towards the ceiling, as that is where you will get the highest contact point.

    In the MD/MS montages, often the body/head is further away from the elbow, because they are literally flying through the air on a backwards jump, rather than an easy smash movement where all their weight is behind the shuttle. Sometimes the elbow doesn't point up the the ceiling and it points further out of the court - this is almost always when they are executing a backwards jump where they cannot get fully behind the shuttle and they are doing a stick smash movement rather than a full smash - they are still taking the shuttle as early as possible, but it is physically impossible to get into a position where their elbow it pointing up to the ceiling in such a high pressure situation.

    A good point of reference would be smash/clear returns off high deep serves e.g. WS, rather than backwards jumping movements. The last one of Chen Long in the montage gives you a clearer idea that with enough time, the elbow gets closer to the ear. Again you have to be careful about the situation - if CL is playing a crosscourt smash, he might take the shuttle further away from his ear so that his body position is closer to the centre to allow him to recover faster. If he is smashing straight, he is likely to prefer to bring it closer to his ear so his body is ready to take 2 steps forward and kill off a weak reply at the net (only if he is VERY sure his opponent can't return his smash crosscourt).

    Try to review footage of pro's where they have plenty of time in the backhand corner. This is because they want to bring their body back into the court, meaning their elbow will be as close to the ear as possible. In fact, it is obvious with some players e.g. Okuhara, that they want to do this so much that even under pressure they go round-the-head, and the elbow is clearly as close to the ear as possible (to get that elbow pointing up to the ceiling), so much so that they push the head out of the way!
     
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  6. Udbhav

    Udbhav Regular Member

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    So is it better to smash with elbow towards ceiling and close to ears vs one where the elbow is pointing outwards?
    Also does pointing elbow towards ceiling slow down the smash speed ?
    What is the optimum point of contact of shuttle with the racket head ie. should the shuttle be just in line with our head(straight above our head or over the non racket shoulder) or it should it be inline with our shoulders of racket arm ( little bit towards the side of the body) for maximum power transfer?
    The elbow towards the ceiling and close to ears puts the racket head (during the swing) in a round the head position as compared to hitting it a little to the side by moving elbows out which puts the racket head towards the side (over the shoulder or even a little away from the shoulders).Which is more preferred for power and angle?
     
    #6 Udbhav, Aug 7, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  7. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Great question.. and great that you provided videos showing what you mean.. and great videos to demonstrate your point. I especially like the second video as it used a view from high up, including the whole racket.. A lot of smash videos don't do that. Yours was particularly good in that regard.

    I know what you mean re what she says.. For example in her demonstration video she does make the point about 'over the ear'. Looking for the word ' ear' in transcript, I see she mentions it three times

    I'm going to include extracts from the transcript where she mentions ear, and screenshots those those points, just to make it really clear the difference/ any differences.

    6:36-6:50
    all the overhead shots we want to come up and have the elbow coming what I say having the elbow coming over your ear so imagine there's a pen on your elbow it should be coming up and over your ear as you swing

    7:01-7:11
    go of your racket look at the mirror line it up bow and arrow come through with your elbow so that you're stretching up and over your ear

    9:07
    coming through over top of the ear



    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Some things to bear in mind

    A) In that entire series on smash, she never hits a shuttle

    B) I'm not great at spotting what players are doing but I strongly suggest you watch a video of anna rice playing rather than just listening to her talking about it. Often people demonstrating things aren't aware of what they do and/or say one thing and do another.. or speak in terms of cues that aren't really what is happening. Here is a video of her playing https://www(dot)youtube(dot)com(slash)watch?v=uZ-0rLj3bMY

    Watching her do a clear near the beginning 18 seconds in, It does look to me like her elbow is reaching up but it's not close to her ear, it is out more to the side. This doesn't necessarily prove anything because I don't know if she'd argue that if she were in a position she'd prefer, or ideal position, or doing everything as she'd want, she'd have done it closer to the ear, but just looking at that it does look like in reality, she hits it more to the side, and often in badminton videos the way people demonstrate themselves hitting it isn't how they hit it..

    [​IMG]

    One guy that I think probably hits it how he demonstrates it, is Rasmus Trans, of Badminton Family youtube channel.. and he knows about biomechanics and is very precise. And many people that are into badminton really like the badminton family stuff.

    In the first image of anna rice, at 6:48, there's a straight line from torso to shoulder to elbow, I don't think that's how she or other players would hit it.. certainly not necessary.... Second mage of anna rice's demo, I can't tell her close it is. And third one it doesn't look as close as first one.

    And in actual play it's not close. , judging from that screenshot I made of her during that game, it's not close...

    The main point is to reach the arm up , which includes reaching the elbow up, and the elbow would come a bit towards the ear when reaching up..

    I don't know if the elbow reaches up independently or just as the arm goes up.. but you probably wouldn't reach the elbow up so high that it gets super close as the first image of her demo.

    Also sometimes it's about having the arm fairly out stretched on contact (though not fully locked).. so the reaching could be more forward than up sometimes. I'm no expert re that bit it's just something one could consider.. Another thing, one might consider is how turned the torso is on contact(is anna more like 90 degrees facing the net on contact, i'm not sure..) some players may be more like 45 degrees on contact i.e. torso less turned), and whether that affects how far out the arm is.. and whether you are measuring how far out the arm is, on an x axis parallel with the net, or an x axis in line with the torso, it's good to be aware of both..

    So there are many things i'm not sure about.. but re your question.. I don't think the elbow is meant to be that close to the ear, so, not like the first pic of anna demonstrating. But like that pic of anna playing. or of your second video.

    And the main point she was making is people , particularly beginners, that tend to hit way too low and need to reach up more than they are.

    See the transcript

    At 07:20 says says "I've had to actually physically take students before and say look because people think that they are reaching that high but until you see it you might not realize that you're not now the crucial reason of reaching high I mentioned it a second ago is for angle"
     
    #7 ralphz, Aug 7, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
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  8. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    If a coach seriously thinks the elbow should brush the ear, then I'd like some of whatever they've been smoking. ;) If you really managed to hit a power smash like that, I'd be worried about your shoulder and elbow.

    I think this is simply a case of a coach massively exaggerating their coaching points. Many coaches do this, with the idea of "over correcting" an error, or just making the idea somehow more "dramatic".

    I'm not a fan of this style in general. I'd rather tell/show people the correct way, not a version so exaggerated that it's also wrong.
     
  9. lurker

    lurker Regular Member

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  10. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    Pretty much this. Exaggerated techniques often end up a hindrance, hence when ralphz and I spoke, I recommended to hit high, without hyper extending, and to find the comfortable spot for hitting the shot.
     
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  11. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    To be fair, there are times when I exaggerate what I'm teaching, because it can be helpful to "overshoot" when learning something new.

    But I always tell the player I'm doing this. They know what they are doing and why. They know it's temporary.
     
  12. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    I guess it's just difficult online when you explain to someone because without demonstration ,as they rely on the inference of what's been said. Then when you say 'but don't go too extreme', it's like this periphrastic backpedal at every turn to hedge your bets.
     
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  13. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    Indeed. Making good video instruction is harder than it looks! You can't rely on the usual face-to-face interactions.
     
  14. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    I'd look at the numerous videos of FHF both doing it in practice and explaining it. Looking at it closely, you can see he reaches up with his elbow/upper arm almost vertically, but doesn't do so with a straight upper body as Anna Rice seems to do in her coaching video - he elevates his racket shoulder. That has the dual benefit of a) allowing you to do that with a normal and sustainable (health-wise) range of motion of your shoulder and b) making your upper body rotation more effective (much of your smash power comes from upper body rotation).
    All in all, try to reach the shuttle as high up as you can, without it feeling uncomfortable in your shoulder. On a full-powered smash that you hit perfectly, with a lot of time, you'll hit it somewhere above your racket shoulder (a few cm to one side or another arent important) with that shoulder elevated at least slightly (I think FHF had a shoulder angle over 45° relative to the floor, but not everybody has that mobility and strength in their upper body).
     
  15. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    This. It's a tilt of the shoulders so his opposite shoulder also has to come down a bit
     
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  16. Ouchie

    Ouchie Regular Member

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    Mohd. Ahsan is another example of the shoulder lift/tilt method. So much so that his head is at 90 degrees during his stroke.
     
  17. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Basically any strong back court player does it.......the better they are technically, the more likely they are to utilize their shoulder rotation well. Fu Haifeng, Mhd Ahsan (although he has some technical peculiarities I wouldn't recommend emulating), Shin Baek Cheol (slightly peculiar follow-through over his left arm instead of under), Goh V Shem, Tan Boon Heong, Jung Jae Sung, (young) Lin Dan,LCW (to some extent - doesn't have textbook follow-through across the body, one of the reasons for his shoulder injury, I suspect), list goes on.

    Examples:



     
  18. Udbhav

    Udbhav Regular Member

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    Out of the 3 which so you think is the correct elbow position while smashing:-
    1. Screenshot_20190829-083032.png

    2. Screenshot_20190829-083030.png
    3. Screenshot_20190829-083027.png

    Another question while swinging should the racket head pass over the head or over the shoulder of the racket hand.

    Also please suggest methods and exercises to practice pronation technique and pronation timing while hitting shots.Even though I know how to pronate while hitting shots during matches I tend to revert back to wrong technique.
     
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  19. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    There's no one single position for the movement, as the elbow moves while smashing..but you could say if reaching the elbow up, then the location it'd be on contact,

    i'm no expert but i'd say probably not the middle pic.

    Maybe the first one is ok if the shuttle contact is a bit out to the side, and the third one if it's less out to the side and more inline with the shoulder.

    a video clip might be clearer for people

    re pronation of upper arm and forearm, if you have a forehand grip , i.e. holding it a bit like one would hold a hammer, then you might be forced to pronate, but i'm no expert.
     
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  20. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    Echoing above, it depends on where the shuttle is between 1 and 3, and 2 looks wrong (because the elbow is leading the stroke in such a way that it doesn't lend itself to an overhead action - if the arm extends, it will end up at shoulder level which isn't really overhead anymore...but the hand is facing forward so it does not match the idea of taking it sideways.)

    1 looks like the shuttle is maybe 45° out to your forehand side, 3 looks like it's above your head (not your shoulder, but only just).

    Leading to the racquet hand position in relation to shoulder/head - it again depends on where the shuttle is. If it's in #1, it will be over your shoulder, if it's #3, it will be over the head. And if you went further 'round the head' (e.g. shuttle contacted 45° to your backhand side with forehand motion), then it will definitely be over your head.
     

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