Eom Hye Won and Kim Ha Na

Discussion in 'Korea Professional Players' started by Ricardo Lopez, Jan 30, 2011.

  1. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    And then she is back:
     
  2. yaojun05

    yaojun05 Regular Member

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    It’s unfortunate that her comeback is one off as she is still barred from participating in the regular circuit according to badzine.
     
  3. Hbmao

    Hbmao Regular Member

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    Why? Isn’t her an independent like Ko?
     
  4. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    Yup. It is really unfortunate. EHW is only 27 years old. According to the current rules, she has to wait two more year to be released from the shackles of BKA.

    Hope that they can work something out. It's a big loss not to have EHW playing in the international circuit. She is such an entertaining player to watch.
     
  5. yaojun05

    yaojun05 Regular Member

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    Can’t agree more.
     
  6. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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  7. event

    event Regular Member

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  8. RedShuttle

    RedShuttle Regular Member

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    Do you have any insight on what their problem is? It's ridiculous to waste a great talent like EHW.
     
  9. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    One way she can do it is to enter under a different national association. That would set the cat amongst the pigeons in Korea.
     
  10. event

    event Regular Member

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    No insight but Ko Sung Hyun said explicitly that the BKA 'will only enter players who are Olympic medallists, World Champions, or Asian Games gold medallists.' That was not reported by Yonhap in November. They only talked about the lifting of the age restriction.
     
    #50 event, Dec 3, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  11. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    no can do. bka would have to release her bwf rights first. yes, an association owns the players rights for life, where a bwf tournament is concerned, whether they are still playing or not.

    does that make the associations communists or slave owners? or both? is there a difference?
    blame that rule on the wisdom of bwf.

    many players are not even aware of this rule.
     
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  12. jjashik

    jjashik Regular Member

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    Anyone with bwf contact should speak to them about this. Does it make sense that a national federation can arbitrarily refuse to send a player? There should be a ombudsman or appeal process for cases like Eom where a player can submit their case.

    Sent from my SM-N920W8 using Tapatalk
     
  13. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    why? bwf has no say as to how any federation treats/handles its players. they don't want to get involved.
    from a nat'l federations point of view, yes, since they own the players. players need to be more aware of their federation's rules so they can negotiate their own deals. ok, that's idealistic since players have no power because the federations have all the money. on the flip side: some nat'l federations that have no money let the players do what they want. however, the players can barely afford to pay their own expenses due to the lack of prize money in badminton.
    and who, exactly, is going to provide one and abide by the ombudsman's rulings?
     
  14. jjashik

    jjashik Regular Member

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    Perhaps if it was involving a domestic issue, you may be right, though even then the notion that BWF doesn't want to be involved would be hard to believe in cases of blatant injustice or mismanagement.
    The whole issue was that players such as (and specifically here) Eom were not allowed to enter int'l tournaments because of national body policies (BKA) that are not based on clear principles of good governance or betterment of the sport. (To prove the related point, the courts ruled against BKA in Ko's case.)

    How in the world does the national governing body (BKA or any other) "own the players"? What they govern is the regulations of the sporting competitions that want to be sanctioned (e.g. national championships), as well as the programs that they fund, including in the powerhouse cases the national team, of which the concerned player is not a member.

    And as BWF is the governing body of the international competitions, they have the authority to establish who qualifies to enter them, so they have the ability to review the current related regulations that require national associations to register players for tournaments. This made sense back when applications had to be done by mail (imagine registering for All England in the 70s) but given today's tools and rankings, it would be equally easy to simply stipulate a minimum ranking to enter tournaments, whether by federation or by individuals.

    And as for your question of who would abide by the ombudsman's rulings, BWF would (and hence all member assoc's) if that's the authority given the position/appeal process by BWF (much like a government follows the ruling of judges in democracies, notwithstanding the notwithstanding clause). And as a further legal recourse, have you not heard of the CAS?
    http://www.tas-cas.org/en/index.html
     
  15. event

    event Regular Member

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    Okay, so many people would react to your original question by saying that if the BWF really wanted to intervene, they could solve the problem easily in one fell swoop by simply removing the requirement that players be entered in tournaments by their associations. In other words, it is only true that 'players such as Eom were not allowed to enter int'l tournaments because of national body policies' because they were not allowed by the BWF to enter the tournaments. If the BWF has issue with the MA policies, they could simply remove the MA from the tournament entry equation and they are clearly unwilling to do that, presumably because all votes at BWF AGMs are cast by representatives of the MAs. Apparently they have no intention of voting to lessen their own power.

    However, what you seem to be proposing is a measured alteration to the tournament entry process. From what I can tell, you are still proposing taking the MAs out of the loop, which is the main effect that the MAs themselves seem to wish to avoid and for which they will therefore not vote. But it seems your suggestion is to ward off one possible side effect, which would be frivolous tournament entries by, say, opportunistic club players like you or me who might decide to enter the Russian Open, or some other poorly-attended tournament, on a lark. It's an interesting proposal but there are still some problems. One is that if Eom Hye Won had wanted to enter the Macau Open, her world ranking points equalled, for example, mine: zero. Now, you could obviously get around that with a loophole for people with historical rankings but it wouldn't help, say, talented players from China or Korea who had never made the national team and thus have never had an international ranking. It would only help the cases the BKA is trying to avoid, which they say is players getting trained and famous as national team members and then trying to cash in on that level and fame while leaving the national team and its sponsors with the players who haven't yet made the big time.
     
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  16. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    they are all domestic issues in bwf's eyes. they made it that way by...
    ...requiring all entries to go through the member associations.

    the governing bodies (in powerhouse countries) own the players because they pay for everything from when they accepted you as a nat'l player: training, room and board, travel expenses, your salary, etc... since they pay, they own you. don't like the rules? quit and try the independent route. good luck out there!
    bwf is not interested in representing the players in any capacity. why would they want to be responsible for the welfare of thousands of players? dealing with 1 association per country is much easier. the result is giving associations lifetime rights to a player, even after they retire or quit their association.
    again, thousands vs. a few.
    but this can't compare to the scale and scope of a gov't. it's just a sport.

    cas is only good for those who choose to abide by their rulings. you can have all the rules/laws you want, but you can't make everyone listen to and obey them.

    your heart is in the right place, but a lot of what you're saying sounds like it came right out of a 'how things should be done' manual. unfortunately, this is the real world full of idiots... like bwf.
     
    #56 samkool, Jan 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
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  17. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    This.

    Badminton doesn't have the money to earn a good enough income as a full time professional without the aid of a national association..
     
  18. jjashik

    jjashik Regular Member

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    That's exactly what some players are trying to do! But are prevented by some MA under current regulations...
    Now as for idiots, I agree with you, but in this case (as in most regarding power and control) it's about self interest and self preservation, not lack of intelligence. The opposite may actually be the case - they are being shrewd and cunning to protect or increase themselves.

    If your stance was correct, Ko shouldn't have taken legal measures against KBA. My point is that wrongs ought to be righted, insofar as possible, and if the BWF and MA don't have the resolve on their own to address such wrongs, we as fans (people who follow and attend tournaments) have influence that we can exert. Will our voices prove sufficient? I can't say, but we can demonstrate that we are watching and also ask for accountability from BWF and ask how such measures that prevent willing and proven athletes from competing in int'l tournament better the sport?
     
  19. event

    event Regular Member

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    So are you saying that you think fans who want talented independent players to be able to compete must also be shrewd and cunning? Interesting. So instead of demanding that the BWF abandon its independent-strangling rule, we should instead call for them to appoint an ombuddy to make a show of objectively evaluating how MAs are applying the rule? I must say it sounds a little like governments who appoint auditors or ombuddies who make reports that make the news and raise a hue and cry, which the governments often seem to ignore. It doesn't mean it isn't a good idea. Even if the position is set up to make non-binding recommendations, it can still shine a light on practices that many fans, players, and other MAs might find distasteful and such reports could have more impact than, say, forum postings, tweets, or editorials.
     
  20. jjashik

    jjashik Regular Member

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    Agreed. It is a contradiction and an unlikely scenario that the MAs would vote in majority to lessen their own power and jurisdiction. But the apartheid regime did fall in South Africa. Imagine with me for a moment that the leading players in the world ranking agreed that players ought to be able to register for tournaments after they leave the national team, and that they threaten to boycott the tournaments until BWF make allowances for such players. (Yes, this would leave them at risk of fines...) And imagine they call on their fans to also boycott the tournaments until BWF resolves the issue. And imagine if the first two tournaments boycotted resulted in devastatingly low attendance. How long do you think it will take for BWF to deal with the issue? Not long, I think.

    Whether or not MAs keep their role in registering the national team members for tournaments is a minor issue. (If players had the right to register, it may have avoided the situation a few years ago where Canadian players Liu/Ng were made ineligible for the PanAm games because of a clerical error by Badminton Canada. Or at least, the players would be at fault themselves, negating the injustice of the situation.) The issue of Eom's ranking is a result of the current system barring her from gaining points. If she and players like her were allowed to register, the problem would resolve itself, either through accepting such players by discretion of organizers (like MD world champions playing in the season finale) or by the slower method of Eom playing lower tournaments to gradually work her way up (like Momota after his suspension). The whole system need not be changed wholesale. At least install a door for players to register so that they are not solely at the mercy of the MA.

    And while it would be problematic if many players quit the national teams to branch out for their own success, the fact is that if the national teams offer the best coaching and training, would players really quit in droves? But if you are not getting along with a coach or director and are forced to remain because of the current regulations, how is that good for the sport? Wouldn't it have been better, as an example, for Korea to have Eom medal at the Asian games, than bar her from competing (and hence qualifying)? If Koo KK and Tan BH wanted to keep playing tournaments outside the national team, and say BAM refused to register them, what is better for the sport? Or Lin Dan? Or LCW? And on a more realistic level, as you mentioned, the many top tier players from China that have not or seldom competed outside. why not make allowances for them to try?

    As it stands, when a national team player wins, do they not keep the prize money anyway? Does any of it go to the team or MA?
     
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