Explain why TH lost?

Discussion in 'World Championships 2006' started by chibe_K, Sep 21, 2006.

  1. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,083
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    u.s.a.
    Sigh...finally...

    ..alright, i think you have finally "acknowledge" the "magic word" in your opening paragraph...;) :p:D ...
     
  2. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2002
    Messages:
    16,531
    Likes Received:
    841
    Occupation:
    Stock Broker
    Location:
    Singapore Also Can
    You have forgotten that not all three ingredients are equal in quality or measure. And not all three could be evoked at the right time. TH may actually possess these qualities but not all three were brought to play efficiently and optimally. As far as I could see, it was TH's speed that failed him most and CH mainaged to bring this out a shade better than TH. ;)

    In a rather fluid and fast moving episode, everything is relative. If you lose out in speed, however marginally, you probably will lose out in power.
     
    #162 Loh, Sep 25, 2006
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2006
  3. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,083
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    u.s.a.
    ..sure, it's true that "not all 3 ingredients are equal in quality or measure at the same time"...however, those "3 Ss" which you mentioned, which are needed to play this(any) sport, uses up energy and fall under 1 "magic word"...;) :)
     
  4. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2002
    Messages:
    16,531
    Likes Received:
    841
    Occupation:
    Stock Broker
    Location:
    Singapore Also Can
    You sure are persistent! :eek:

    I hope you realise that the match could go either way as it was only 2 points which separated them. So, the issue of fitness should not loom high.

    Lady Luck (like hitting the tape and going over) was not with TH this time as was the case with LCW in his match with BCL. Don't forget that TH has won the Indonesian Open, which gives an indication that he is not really that unfit and many made him out to be! :rolleyes:
     
  5. silvia

    silvia Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2003
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    0
    Stamina???......wow wat else?? injuries, sickness, lack of concentration,??? every other excuses other than he is not that good anymore....the fact chen hong beat him that nite, is meant that Chen Hong is BETTER than Him on that match...pls why cant just u accept the defeat gracefully??.....and give credit to chen hong?......
     
  6. phaarix

    phaarix Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,301
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    Aotearoa
    Yes, credit goes to Chen Hong for being better than Taufik on this occcasion. But why do you see it as an excuse? Taufik is still an incredible player, I don't think people need excuses. People are just pointing out a fault in his game which could lead to Chen Hong being better. And stamina is an important part of the game. If Taufik's lack of stamina is a problem for him, then this means, in that respect Chen Hong is better. It is not an excuse the way I see it. It is just a point of his game that needs work (according to the people who point it out). I'm not sure whether I totally agree with it as I haven't really seen any signs of a lack of stamina. But I also don't see it as a mere "excuse".

    Personally I think the problem with Taufik right now is that he is very inconsistent in his game. That due to his lack of playing recently. And that is not an "excuse" for him either. It is why I think Chen Hong has outplayed Taufik, and if you like, was better than him on this occasion. So well done to Chen Hong as he did play very very well in this tournament :).
     
  7. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,083
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    u.s.a.
    me, persistent??..hehe, you bet i do..;) :) :D
    ..hmm, so now you are taking into account "luck" as the main difference??.;)..Like he wasn't doing so in this previous 2 matches??..;)

    So, what happened to all the reports in the medias of Taufik and his preparation prior to the WC(even shared in this forum)??.I'm sure you've read those, no??.Are you discounting those??..Are they totally taken out of the equation??..:p
    Sure, he won the IO recently, but that was in what, June/July??..What has he done after that, even at the Korea and HK Open??..Also, remember what he said in the Thomas Cup abt him wanting to play against LinDan in the WC?? What happened to that??..
    Sure, it's clearly his undoing, no doubt; but unfortunately that's all clear and laid out for us all to see..:rolleyes: ;)
     
  8. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,083
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    u.s.a.
    silvia, thanks for the input..
    Well, we(at least myself) am not making "excuses" abt TH's humbling defeat...Yes, i agree all credit goes to Chen Hong. In fact, if Taufik was to lose to LCW or Gade or anyone else, credit will definitely be given to those players for coming ready(physicall and mentally) to play. No doubt.;):)

    What we are focusing on is/was the "culprit" for his downfall. It was clearly mentioned even before the start of the WC. And from all the reports prior to the WC, they all indicate clearly that Taufik wasn't ready & "fit" to compete(if need be, we can provide you with those reports/articles to read). Starting from himself who've said it and progressed with his coach and then PBSI. I even mentioned in my earlier post that i would be surprised/quite surprised if he went deep in the tournament or even win it again. From the reports, they all admit Taufik's mindset wasn't "focused", let alone his fitness..:p ;)
     
    #168 ctjcad, Sep 25, 2006
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2006
  9. Simp84

    Simp84 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    900
    Likes Received:
    2
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    MY
    You see PG and Taufik is so used to the stratergy of beating CH...
    Control net and smash it down..... however CH this time outclassed them at the net, replying back with a brave attempt of net shot too! Making TH n Gade taste their own medicine
    Hence Taufik n PG couldn't switch any tactic... the coaches have no clue too~
    So bottom line is CH has done his homework~ and he play much better than PG n TH!:D
     
  10. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2002
    Messages:
    16,531
    Likes Received:
    841
    Occupation:
    Stock Broker
    Location:
    Singapore Also Can
    My main point is that IMHO, TH lost not because he is unfit or lacked stamina as some have claimed. That particular evening he just lost to a better man Chen Hong, who I think played at a faster pace and took control most times. I also mentioned that CH was mentally hyped up to make an impact. TH also made more unforced errors as someone had pointed out.

    And in passing I mentioned the following to stress that 2 points in the NSS icould be easily won and lost by either party:

    "I hope you realise that the match could go either way as it was only 2 points which separated them. So, the issue of fitness should not loom high."

    But of course you chose not to dwell on this point but instead focus on my cursory point on Lady Luck.

    Had Lady Luck been good to TH, he could have won instead of CH. For example, a serve or an impatient smash into the net by CH could happen or a return by TH that hit the tape and rolled over. :D

    My contention is that TH lost not because he lacked stamina or that he was unfit. He just lost to a past World No.1 who was very well prepared and was all fired up to win the match. :cool:
     
  11. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,083
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    u.s.a.
    ...Simp84, thanks for your input...Sure, i acknowledge Chen Hong did his homework and was ready to play. But when you mentioned the "coaches have no clue too" and "Hence Taufik and PG couldn't switch any tactic", why do you think so?? But doesn't it seem odd esp. for an OC and WC to be in that situation?? To be specific, with Taufik, wasn't he used to be playing in these kind of situations many times before and like you've mentioned above, as highlighted in bold??..You mean Taufik all of a sudden got a "brain freeze" and "forgot" how to change tactics??..And so does his coach??..You mean when they switched sides during interval at the 3rd set, both Taufik and his coach don't know what to do next??..There must be a reason for this, esp. for Taufik; and that's what we're looking for??.. ;)
     
  12. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,083
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    u.s.a.
    Re the initial statement i've highlighted in bold above, again, i would like to ask : why Chen Hong was the "better" man that night?? Why was he able to play at a faster pace and took control most of the times??..Why couldn't Taufik able to do/counter that??..It's a simple inquiry(ies), and if you can give your opinion(s) on these, i'd love to hear it..;)

    Re your 2nd highlighted statement above, i understand the match could go either way. No doubt. But as you can see in Chen Hong's subsequent match against Gade, do you think fitness wasn't a factor for him in winning over Gade. Would an unfit Chen Hong able to go the distance against Gade?? Knowing well that Gade hasn't played any matches longer than 2 sets prior?? Even most if not all the people in here "predicted" a Gade victory over a spent CH..And even if you take into consideration both players committed unforced errors??..Again, it's a simple inquiry(ies), and if you can give your opinion(s) on these, i'd love to hear it..;)

    hmm, no, i am not "focusing on your cursory point on Lady Luck"..Nor was i focusing on whether "luck" was a factor. I was just wondering why you mentioned/brought up "Lady Luck" in your previous post(#164), which if i recall, i haven't noticed from your earlier post(s)..;)
    ..hmm, i would agree on your last statement above, as highlighted in bold.
    But IMO, above all else, it was Taufik's unpreparedness, esp. his lack of fitness(ie. stamina, strength, speed etc. what have you) which essentially "doomed" him(see the post written by hollywood_t which IMO is a nice write up)..And i'd like him to "join" in this discussion as well, if he doesn't mind..;)
    One more question to ask you if you don't mind : do you think Taufik was fit enough to play in this WC?? If you say he was, then i would like to see somekind of prove of it. And no, i don't consider him going into back to back rubber games as a sign he was fit..;)
     
    #172 ctjcad, Sep 25, 2006
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2006
  13. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    6,526
    Likes Received:
    22
    Occupation:
    Designing and producing quality feather shuttlecoc
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Another telling effect on the matches outcome is the depth of players in the Chinese team. They have 5 MS players capable of taking on the best in the world. God knows if they have other junior players we have never heard of who can thrash some of the leading lights of the other countries. In contrast, Malaysia, Indonesia, Korea, and Denmark each had only one MS player who would be considered a serious contender. For example, Chen Hong actually eliminated two of the serious 'foreign' contenders, clearing the path for the other CHinese and for himself. There are just too many top level Chinese players to overcome-it is like trying to get through one great wall of China, only to be confronted with another, and another, etc. The other countries are going the other way-they can only boast of one or two at most.
    This is the key. Depth, depth, depth, nothing short of depth. If this is not attended to, it will be a matter of time the Chinese will come up with a 3rd reserve team to beat the first team of the once mighty Indonesians, Malaysians, Danes, and Koreans.
     
  14. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,083
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    u.s.a.
    A bit off topic..

    :)..For MS?!?!..i thought they already have the "3rd reserve team" in Chen Hong??..I thought he was CHN's "3rd" or "4th" best MS player??(LD is 1st, BCL is 2nd then CJ/CH 3rd or 4th in rankings??).....Which he beat both the ex-WC(INA 1st MS) and Gade(DEN 1st MS)??..:confused: :rolleyes: ;) :D :cool:
     
  15. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    6,526
    Likes Received:
    22
    Occupation:
    Designing and producing quality feather shuttlecoc
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    No, CH, LD, BCL, CJ are in the national team, all considered the first team. There are others who are being prepared to take over. Not long ago, some of the top WS an WD Chinese first team members revealed that they have to be at their top at all times because they are just too many young pretenders to the throne that are fighting to overthrow them. Just like in soccer a good team needs depth, for the day and for the future.
     
  16. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,083
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    u.s.a.
    A bit off topic..

    :)..hehe, ok,ok..but do all 4 of them *really need* to be in the 1st team??..hehe:rolleyes: ;) :p :( :D :cool:
     
    #176 ctjcad, Sep 25, 2006
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2006
  17. Simp84

    Simp84 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    900
    Likes Received:
    2
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    MY
    Ok even if the coach tell Taufik what to do.. obviously he cant just switch his style of play... afterall he is a human :D and this is how Taufik play... get a tight net shot to set up the smash

    It is very fustrating to play against a person u used to beat and suddenly he did something drastic that you have no idea/difficulty coping with.. This is definatly evident as Taufik keep losing to CH at the net and keep lifting it to mid court to allow CH to thunder down with a smash... In the end taufik got really pissed off and give a shout of disappointment and disbelief

    Taufik couldn't come up with a tactic to beat CH... this is true because he went on to battle CH at the net throughout the 3rd game...in fact both of them are just betting their luck at the net... From what I see is that he was stunned, and couldn't believe this is happening and yes I bet his brain froze during middle of the game (shown when Taufik did same thing repetitively, netting and attempting his signature cross court smash from rear left of the court which was totally a waste of effort, since CH did his homework and anticipated all those smashses), how do we know when Taufik is thinking? When he is performing trick shots... tricking his opponent like how he tricked Ng Wei during R64

    So conclusion is.. to beat a person.. you really need to do your homework!! Prepare months prior to tournament... Ronald Susilo showed us the way.. he prepared so well against LD that he send LD home the 1st round in Olympic 2004 :p
     
    #177 Simp84, Sep 26, 2006
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2006
  18. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,083
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    u.s.a.
    thanks, Simp84, for your input...ok, i can see your point "better" now..I think i(we) can have some sort of agreement in your conclusion part, as i've highlighted in bold..But then, when Taufik has beaten CH for who knows how many times??(8-1 record or something like that), i mean how much more preparation or like you put it "homework" can he get??..To an extent I still don't quite understand why you feel "even if the coach tell Taufik what to do.. obviously he cant just switch his style of play"..there must be a reason/explanation for this other than "he's human"...Don't you feel CH, is also "human" & was in the same boat also as Taufik, playing in the 3rd set?? Remember with both players quite spent, yet like you mentioned, CH was still able to "to thunder down with a smash" repeatedly?? ..:confused: :rolleyes:..

    One last thing....Re you mentioning "Prepare months prior to tournaments", in your opinion, for Taufik's case, what does that entail/include??..And do you personally feel Taufik came to the WC prepared(mentally and/or physically)??..:confused: ;)
     
    #178 ctjcad, Sep 26, 2006
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2006
  19. Simp84

    Simp84 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    900
    Likes Received:
    2
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    MY
    I personally think Taufik came to WC to beat LD.. obviously you will pay more attention to the dangerous ones and less for the ones you always beat...
    CH obviously knowing he will meet Taufik and PG.. both very similar playing style.. who loves to control the net.. he probably prepare himself how to counter it... and indeed he did it very well! I was shocked to see CH replying a tight net shot with another daring net shots! haha

    What I mean is.. when a coach ask you to switch to different style.. for example if he ask Taufik to stop playing the net.. obviously Taufik will feel uncomfortable right? I mean its like asking LD not to smash when he has the opportunity! And asking LHI to attack continously when he is a rally player.. Althought these things are not impossible to do during the game however I still think you need to come prepared for the switch...

    So Taufik cling on to his usual stuff... drastically reducing the unforced error by 2nd half of 3rd set... both of them clinging to their throat~ With the disturbed mentality... Taufik served right into the net! GONE~~~~ haha thats how CH won:p
     
  20. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,083
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    u.s.a.
    thanks again for your input, Simp84..it looks like it's just gonna be the 2 of us keeping this discussion "alive"..;)
    Re the statement i've highlighted in bold, just wondering, what and how were you able to come up with that "conclusion"(eventhough it's your personal believe)??..Also, isn't that statement kind of "conflicting" with what you've mentioned below(as i've highlighted in bold)??..if you have any "proof(s)" to back that up, i'd like to see it..;)
    And when you said "CH obviously knowing he will meet Taufik and PG", esp. Taufik, does it take the 10th or 11th or who knows how many times for him to finally figure out how to beat TH??..Personally, eventhough i haven't watched *all of* Taufik vs. CH's matches, i wouldn't be surprised if CH was able to do the same thing in his past matches against Taufik...yet this time around, for some reason, he was able to be successful at the end..
    hmm, you brought up an interesting question with the statement i've highlighted in bold...With that question in mind, in your opinion, why did Taufik(and his coach) came unprepared for "the switch in their game plan"??..Haven't they've seen enough of CH's game to possibly make a counter??..Did they "underestimate" CH or perhaps rest of the players, that all they need to do was stick with their "old plan"??..:confused: ;)
     
    #180 ctjcad, Sep 26, 2006
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2006

Share This Page