This is a problem for me, but the opposite. As a strong female player I am often in groups where I am the best player with 3 weaker guys. If I play normal mixed doubles, lower level guys just tend to bang it back and forth and nothing comes to the net. If, on occasion, a shuttle should come near me I net smash it and then my opponents guffaw and tell each other to keep everything far from me and just keep hitting it to the back. I've gone games where I maybe hit the shuttle 10 times total (excluding serving). Soooooo boring. Now in those situations I just go to the back when my partner serves and play mens doubles style. Screw my male partners ego. But in your situation I'm not sure there is anything you can do except talk to the guys. It seems more like a attitude problem than a skill one. If those guys are more competitive and play aggressively to win, then maybe point it out to them and tell them what they are doing is unsportsmanlike and making others uncomfortable. Not in an accusatory way but in a, "hey, guys look, I know you want to win but..." kinda way. If that doesn't sway them then I agree, they should probably find a new club. It sucks to have a hobby player on a competitive club and vice-versa. But maybe that isn't an option in your area. You could always try to totally change your system. Pair the weakest guy with the strongest and 2nd strongest with second weakest and so on. Perhaps the better players would protest, but if you have one strong and one weak partner on a team, tthey can't gang up on the weaker opponent. Makes all sides a bit more even which gives them a fighting chance. Perhaps the problem is the "bully" players are playing together too much and need to be split up.
I'm always surprised when players use sex instead of skill to determine the playing system. I once had the pleasure to partner a really good female player (about #15 in Germany in U17 at the time - I would probably have scored about 5 points in singles against her). We had trained before, so she knew my skill. When she asked me "doubles or mixed?", I said mixed would be more appropriate and took my stance at the left side front service line. Turned out she thought I would be the back player . We ended up playing doubles, luckily with the opponents not experienced enough to always hit to me.
Good for you but You have no idea how frail the common man's ego is. For a woman to go to the back shatters most men's egos. And once they are feeling "wounded" they become hyper critical of you and sometimes just really pissy. So a woman has to consider the temperament of the male partner, the skill level of the opponents and her own mood. I have had to work a lot on my own self esteem and what-not to just go to the back and tell men to shut up when they criticize me. But for most women it is really hard. Men are too used to telling their female partner what to do and having the female listen, with no input of her own (regardless of her skill level.) Sad that such a high level female had the same feelings as me, a common player. But #metoo I guess. Sexism in the badminton world isn't talked about a lot but it is such a prevalent part of being a woman in badminton we all consider it everyday.
As a male, my perspective of sexism is of course incomplete, but are you sure that this is universal to badminton, as opposed to the players, or more accurately, people in your town or region? For what it's worth, in the lower divisions in Germany it is quite common to see a level doubles system (or something chaotic approaching that) in mixed doubles. Reverse mixed is not unheard of, even somewhat common in U13. Even in the Bundesliga, I've seen a pair switch to level doubles (admittedly, the woman is the best mixed player in Germany, and the guy usually plays in the second team). In none of those cases I've heard anyone express anything but friendly surprise. But then again, badminton may not be connected as much to one's identity in Germany, being a fringe sport. Or maybe the sexist guys here play football.
I think that you come to this insight by your own experience. Never the less, I want to share my personal experience and I think it also matters which value a woman has in the culture or country. We have the luxury to have more females in our club than other clubs. So I'm used to play quite often with a female. Also with females who play 1-3 divisions higher. As a male I personally came rarely to the conclusion to play with them a mixed tactic. Why? 1. If I play vs. a level doubles pair (MD or WD), I would play also level doubles, regardless if I play with a female or not. Regardless if a strong female or weak female or strong male or weak male. It's for several reasons a different discipline. Your opponents will cover the court slightly different with a different positioning pattern and different rotations, hit a different selection of shots, why should I play them with a mixed tactic? I don't see any point to do this. You do exploit in mixed different compared to doubles. Why starting a game with this setup? 2. Most people have a wrong view of mixed doubles. They all think to glue a female at the T and play the rest. This never worked for me or will. FME in mixed, which I play during league and in tournaments, my fixed female partner for a half decade don't need to stay at the net all the time and I can't play all the time the rear court. If you play vs. a decent mixed, the woman need to be at the back and the male at front in several situations. I appreciate that she intercepts and support me when I need to play a reply at the net and don't need run unnecessary and strange ways to cover everything. 3. The abilities. It's simply not the fact that the sex should determine to play the backcourt or frontcourt. Most male players overestimated their footwork, their smash and their abilities to cover most of the court. As a mixed male player you can be decent and bring your female into play or a stupid sucker, who do it for sex issues, but are unable to play mixed. 4. If I need to play with a female and she is just used to play WS and WD I don't see any reason to play mixed with her. She has a different understanding of playing tactics and badminton is just not badminton regardless if male or female or 1 or two people on court. Every discipline is different and also the difference between Level doubles and mixed double is huge. I see no reason to do this. 5. If a female is better than me at the rear court, has better footwork and is faster because she is playing higher than me, I would play a level doubles. Even vs. opponents with mixed tactics. In level doubles I'm ,depending on my partner, the net player and creator of chances to get the attack and feel comfortable. I also experienced that a lot male players can't play the net well and most males overestimated their abilities to play the rear. They might have a powerful smash but even that is not enough or a reason to play the rear, because they can't place it clever to bring the frontcourt player into play. @Borkya these are my unfiltered thoughts as a male mixed player about the things you experience. Maybe you play mostly with immature little boys and bad team players. I feel sorry for you, but please notice that even male players exist who know to treat a woman well and equal with the same value as a male.
Are you guys actually mansplaining "the female badminton experience" to me, a female? I originally wrote this big rant disputing several of your gusy' points, but I deleted it because it would be as helpful as yelling in the wind. The fact is, from your brief responses you are both tripping over yourselves trying to prove how cool, open-minded and female friendly you are not even noticing how ironic your replies are. You both question me and my group, and my experience within the group, based on nothing except how you, and other "mature men" would never do such things. But you did. Instead of seeing value from the (underrepresented) female perspective you write it off as me playing with immature/**** guys. Instead of listening, and learning from the female perspective you just talked about how awesome you are. This is just more of the same attitude I see on the court and I have a feeling if I talked to the women you play with, things might not be as hunky dory as you think. The correct thing to do when a woman talks about her experience isn't to tell her she's wrong. It isn't to blame her for being too sensitive or blaming the people she plays with. (80% of the men I play with would write exactly what you guys wrote and pat themselves on the back for being so open-minded and cool about "not seeing gender" on the court because they just have no clue how the women feel because they have never asked.) It's not to mansplain over her how she is wrong and how you never would do that. The correct thing to do when someone wholly different from you explains their point-of-view is to listen, Not to say why she's wrong, not to defend yourself, just listen. And if you really care, and if you really want to make sure you are one of the "cool guys" it's to ask questions and believe her answers without assuming something is "wrong" where she is and where you are is so much better. We play a male dominated sport in a male dominated world. I'm guessing you thought you had really kind and thoughtful replies and are surprised that I could criticize them.But that's kinda my point. Anyway, this is extremely off topic, but I just had to address this before going back to the OP's point. And if my response is making you mad, I want you to go back and re-read what you wrote and try to see it from another's perspective, and try to see why it is disrespectful to women players. These boards are male dominated too and I would actually really like to hear more from the women so I too can get a rounder picture of females in the amateur badminton world. If you guys play with so many women all the time, please invite them to the boards and ask them to be active so we can get more voices, and more experiences here.
That's sad. Any chance you can write it again? I would love to read it. Explaining how I'm wrong helps me much more than simply saying it's not worth to discuss. Huh? Are you sure you're not reading something into the previous posts that is not there? Why would anyone question you? Did what? We discussed variations of tactics based on different playing skill, and shared our own experiences. If you believe that despite playing level doubles or reverse mixed with women, we still are somehow sexist in our approach to badminton strategy, can you explain us how, and how we could improve? But isn't immature/**** guys a very accurate description of sexists? If not, how does it differ? I believe everybody agreed with you so far. Who did that? Can you quote a couple of the examples from above? I disagree; I do think that blaming sexist people is the correct response to sexism. What else would you propose to do? So let me ask you: When you are playing with the 80% of players who do you respect you as a player on court and chose strategy based on skill alone, what is your experience? What are we missing?
My intention was never to tell you "you are wrong". I also didn't want to tell you how awesome and open mindet I am. My intention was to tell you just that what you experience is sad and I feel sorry for you and not to generalize that every male player regardless which country is the same and do the same and would do the same to you. I just want to give respect to female players by describing my experience and how I treat. If you see it that way, I feel sorry for you. This is a too hot iron for me. It seems you transfrom every flower which it tried to give into a gun shot which hits you. I'm out.
This is something that frustrates the hell out of me. I see it all the time here in the UK, yet to most players it's invisible. It's not blatant sexism ("women can't drive", etc.), but an insidious subtle sexism that often goes unnoticed -- even by many women, who have become accustomed to it. The part I object to most is that it frequently involves men telling the women what to do, whereas you never see the reverse. It's often disguised with patronising "compliments" (which are actually lies). For example, instead of saying "women should stay at the front because they are too weak to play at the back", people will say, "women are much better touch players than men and are more patient, making them far better net players". Almost that exact sentence can be found in one or two prominent (old) badminton books. Rubbish, and patronising rubbish at that. The hypocrisy is also exposed when you have a man who is weak in the rearcourt but strong at the net, and a woman who is stronger in the rearcourt and weak at the net. When this happens, I have never seen the man offer to play level doubles, let alone reverse mixed, despite the tactical advantage. From a coaching point of view, the "traditional" club approach to mixed is also very harmful to player development. How are women supposed to improve their badminton, when they are relegated to a small part of the court and pressured into using stupid tactics? It's a particular problem for developing rearcourt skills. The good news is that it's changing. Generally, I find this attitude is only present among older players. Young players are far less sexist on average, and for most the whole idea of the man telling the woman what to do is bizarre and offensive.
What's the problem of them describing their own experiences as well? It's definitely uncommon, but it happens. I don't often play mixed but when I do in matches, we will move around according to the tactical situation and the respective ability of the partnership. Often the lady forecourt - man rearcourt formation is so ingrained, it takes a while for an opponent to adjust to seeing the man at the front. The reason I don't play mixed often is that my rearcourt control play for mixed is a lot weaker than my forecourt area and simply speaking not many ladies complement my style. The ones that do have previously trained a lot. In social games, I am not really bothered where anybody stands irrespective of the gender. In a few matches, we successfully switch around the tactic. I remember many years ago playing a mixed match against Simon Archer. He was like the top player in England juniors just transitioning out to seniors and we were nobodies. In the competition, we took the first game off them (it took them 1.5 games to adjust) but alas, we couldn't close it out. No chance for a famous upset win.
Females are usually placed in the front not because they are female but because they are much worse at the back than the male player. This is usually due to their smashes/drive that are much weaker than their male partner, making it hard to maintain constant attack if they are at the back. In your instance, that doesn't seem to be true so there's really no reason to play "normal mixed style".
I actually think that all things even, the pairing with the best front court player always wins. See all the top doubles pairs have the best front court players LYD, Cai Yun, KKK, these days Sukamuljo, and in the mixed forum Zhao Yunlei, Ma Jin, Liliyana Natsir. Its a bit of a misconception that the pairing with the stronger rear court player will win. Will FHF be a multiple world champion or olympic gold medal winner if he didnt have Cai Yun or Zhang Nang? (thats up for debate!) But the front court player in badminton is far more important at the higher levels of play. They read the game hunt the shuttle and either kill the game off at the net or create chances for their partner to control the rally or smash/play into open space. Even in intermediate levels of play if you can control the front court you will create more opportunities to win the point. Personally if i have created an opportunity for my partner by forcing the opponents to lift the shuttle i have done my job. Its not my fault if my partner cant take the chance with it, and actually a smash/overhead shot is much easier for my partner to hit then having then defending/running around/cutting shots off at the net only to misshit or get in the way.
Here in the U.S. (at least Southern California), I haven't experienced gender problems. If you're good, regardless of sex, you are respected. Most guys will ask a strong girl to play doubles instead of mixed because the game is more fun, especially for the girl. I started badminton late in life (relatively speaking), and instantly realized how strong girls can be. For instance, back in the day, I could not smash through Grace "Yun" Peng, ex-Chinese national player (not saying I can now); but back then, she returned my smash like it was nothing, 50 smashes at her, 50 returns to the back baseline. So this example (one of many) gave me ultimate respect for the sport of badminton because it's a sport where the gap between men and women is far less than other sports (as always, relatively speaking). As I started progressing and getting better, many times I would team up with a girl (playing double's style) against men. It was fun and I learned a lot because I have found, women play smarter than men. Here's a funny story I would like to share: when Mona Santoso (ex-Indonesian player) came to the U.S. to live, she wanted to coach. At the time, it was tough to get new students as coaching is very competitive. I told her the best way to get attention/be known/gain students was to win tournaments and also go around the different local schools, parks and recreation centers and play to showcase her skill but with a twist: play reverse mixed; that is play mixed with a guy, but the guy is in the front and Mona would play the back. But what guy would want to be the "girl" in front? Hmmm, I think I know someone; oh wait, that was me. So, Mona and I went (with our little group) around SoCal and played reverse mixed and she got famous real quick. And yes, we won all our matches. So, minimal problems/experience here with respect to gender issues.
Yes, this this THIS. It's never open blatant sexism. That's why at least 80% of the guys I play with would consider themselves "gender blind" too because they play with women and are happy to play with women. But then when you play 3 guys and one women all the guys treat it like a "break game" and do things, like practice their trick shots or take it easy. As if the guy with the mixed team is so inherently disadvantaged that the other guys don't want to rub it in so they don't play to their fullest ability. Or men refusing to smash on the female player because they think it is "chivalrous" or "unsportsmalike" They think "it's not fair of me to smash the woman because she can't return it, so I won't smash her and I'll be more sportsmanlike." All of those are shrouded in compliments and good sportsmanship and the guy can feel good about his decision. Yet it is SO frustrating as a woman to deal with this. I've had to really fight for men to smash me at the same speed and intensity they smash men. And I've stopped games in the middle and yelled at all the players to play earnestly. Guys are actually shocked and surprised that women would be mad about this "but you have an advantage if I don't smash on you!" but almost all women I know hate this. I'm willing to yell at guys because I want to improve more than I want people to like me, but most women aren't like me and they just suck it up. And forget if the roles are revered and one man plays with 3 women. Even if the three women are at a much higher level than him, the guy has to make all the jokes about being "just one of the girls." *eye roll* And they never play with equal intensity as they do with the men unless the women are at a much higher level. Then they are nervous to be beat by women so they play really hard. But most of the time they don't and when they lose they laugh and make "guess I'm not a good womens double player" jokes. Also, the authority men have on the court that women don't. Like, "teaching" women what they are doing wrong when women almost never do the same to men. Like Gollum said men tend to criticize their female partners much more and regardless of skill level. Even when the women is better the man will tell her what she did wrong when she misses a shot. This is eternally frustrating to me and I've written a lot about it on my blog. But even something like when a woman goes to the back on the serve. You have to understand the mental anguish the women has gone through before doing that. She's observed everyone (opponents and her partner) , she's sized up her partners temperament, she's considered the importance of the game (aka: can she stifle her talent and still win) and then she makes her decision. Meanwhile, many times when a woman goes to the back of her own decision, often the man will just give a curt, "go to the front" and expect her to do it. no discussion, no consideration for her and her analysis of the game. No, "do you think it's better if I'm in the front?" no "you think we are stronger if you start in the back?" nothing like that. It's always "go to the front" and if the woman refuses the men tend to have an attitude. Although, I will say with the pro's and semi-pro's they never have a problem with a woman going to the back. I love when I'm worse than my partner but I know me and my partner are much stronger than our opponents. In those cases I'll go to the back to where I am weaker so it gives our opponents a fighting chance (and a good chance for me to practice the rear of the court). Also, I hate when a court opens up and 5 individuals all step out at the same moment. If it is 4 guys and one girl, everyone looks at the girl and the assumption is she is the one that will sit out. And just so you know, I play with three clubs every week, in three different courts in 3 different parts of the city. (one is my coaches club and we are competitive, one is a womens club--with guys too--but the focus is women's doubles and one with all gay guys) In a course of a week I play with over 100 people from intermediate to literal professionals covering college age to upper 50's. And people from different countries. I don't see this with only one group, or one age or one skill level. The only commonality is sex.
Depending on who I'm playing with I have different reactions. Some guys can really make you feel almost ashamed for wasting their time and that is always a confidence killer and the game ends quickly and I slink off equal parts hate myself for not saying anything, and hating them for their bad attitude. But if I'm close, or friendly with the guys (or if we play often) then I get really pissed. I've stopped games before and called my opponents over and said "why are you playing like this?! Do you want to waste your time?! Play for real! Respect the sport!" And I stand there and expect an answer. They always blush and giggle and say sorry (and are surprised that I even noticed--but it's so obvious so I don't know what they are thinking.) Once I "prove" myself (in their mind) that I am a serious player with the ability and desire to improve myself then they react accordingly and don't take it easy on me. But it takes me a few weeks of regular play to break in a guy. (Like if they pass up a few smash opportunities I'll tell them, in a friendly way, that they should smash on me, that it's okay and to not play easy against me. After I say that most guys will begin to do it...tentatively at first and then more vigorously as I return them.) And remember I said 80% of guys I play with would consider themselves gender-blind. There is 10% that secretly thinks women are vastly inferior, and then there is 10% that openly says so. I obviously avoid them (they equally avoid me). And play for food and drink?! We play for cash! haha.
Sometimes I don't smash in order to work the opponent around the court. Let's say for mixed, it's quite possible give two clears to the crosscourt lady and then play a drop with the aim of frustrating the opponent. Would I be at risk of being shouted at? At least I would know I have achieved my aim with an outcome like that. Hehe.
Of course there are may times when a smash is set up and the best strategy is to use another shot to force your opponents to scramble at the last second. But over the course of a game it becomes obvious. Several times my male partners have spoken up before I have (partners who are used to me and how I play) and even they will question our opponents tactics. They'll say, "She can handle smashes, don't worry" or "play serious," something like that. I've actually had to go so far and ask my coach to tell a guy to play serious and sometimes my coach steps in on my behalf when he sees it. I didn't even notice this problem initially until a few guys pointed it out to me several times. One partner even jokingly said we were gonna use it against our partners as it weakened their offense. I think jokingly? Because we actually did. (All of this is just in daily play, not competitions I should point out. Competitions smashes are usually directed at women which makes it all the more vital for us to train smash returns during daily games.) Again, I would like to point out that instead of assuming that my experience is true as I described it, you assumed that my tactics and game play was lacking, my understanding of badminton game play is poor and I am an oversensitive woman that angers easily when outmaneuvered. So I tried to include many male reactions in my response as that seems to sway men into believing me more than just my own words. Have I convinced you yet? At least you didn't ask if I only get mad on days I have my period.
