Gender attitudes on court

Discussion in 'General Forum' started by Borkya, Nov 28, 2017.

  1. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    Unless you know the player's regular style of play in MD, then @Cheung is merely pointing out that some people do not smash, even when given a juicy opportunity to do so.

    I for one absolutely hate it when my opponents get a juicy weak lift, yet play the game of attrition until they can literally stand at the net and watch whilst I am forced to commit to the net or rearcourt (and hit the stroke I didn't commit to of course).

    Plenty of the older players especially do this, and as a younger male player, it reinforces the experience > physical thing.

    Finally, I've played far too many XD games where the woman has a stronger defence than the man. In fact, at my level it's endemic - the male is generally who I prefer to smash at, not because the female is weaker, but because im much more likely to get a favourable reply by dropping/clearing to women. The female's strength of speed of netplay and racquet technique tends to lend itself to a faster/counterattacking defence.
     
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  2. Borkya

    Borkya Regular Member

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    The entire post. I was saying I get frustrated when men don't smash on me because they think it is more "sportmanslike" and gives the lady a chance to play if they don't smash and you replied with "why someone would choose not to smash."

    What you described is basic tactics and game play, beginner level. You think I don't know the difference between a well executed fake/drop/crosscourt hit and someone intentionally not smashing? Of course I do. You think I think that at every smash opportunity the person should hit a smash? Of course not. Your assuming that not only do I not know even this basic strategy but I can't even recognize it.

    Then you assume that I (or a hypothetical woman) would get mad and shout at my opponent for outmaneuvering me. If you get away with two clears and a drop and your opponent can't return it, good for you. No one would get mad and shout at you for that. You are implying that I would get mad because someone worked me around the court, which I would never do. That's just clever and the entire reason I work so hard on perfecting my footwork, so I can get anything my opponent throws at me from all angles of the court.

    Really playing, working your opponent and playing best strategy and tactics is all I want. What I get mad is when people take it easy because they are playing against a girl. And what I really get mad at is when people see taking it easy as being "more sportsmanlike" or "being more fair" The best way to play fair is to play hard and serious and respect everyone as an equal. Not protect women like they are weakling that need people to watch out for them.
     
  3. Borkya

    Borkya Regular Member

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    I do also hate that this post has been viewed over 300 times and not one other woman has chimed in about her own experiences. I don't know if there are just so few women on these boards or they feel to shy to talk about it. But i'd really like to get more female voices in on this topic.

    Everyone has their own experiences and I already know mine. I'd really love to hear from other women!
     
  4. OhSearsTower

    OhSearsTower Regular Member

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    I will give another perspective, my perspective of a man:

    first of all we dont have such a culture in our club, im very sorry for you borkya that you have to have such obstacles to overcome to have good games

    in my club, nobody is getting shoved to the net and has to stay there. we talk before the game if we wanna play mixed doubles or level doubles and thats it. Mostly the girls wanna play level doubles because its more fun for them and thats okay.

    Girls here generally overestimate their performance however. If we step on court with 3 men and 1 women, the game is pretty much useless. I feel like very seldom thats recognized by the women. They enjoy it because they have "good" players around them.
    I always try to pair up with the girl so its a challenge and i can go all out. If i have to play with the other guy its a waste of time for me.
    I think girls have a good advantage to be able to play with stronger players all the time. For men it can be a struggle to find games with good players because good players also wanna play with better opponents and so on and so on...

    To make an even pairing the girl would have to have the niveau of several leagues higher. Those are very few in numbers obv and would never "go down" to play with us. Too cocky. They wanna play with guys of their league...
    (i can only speak of my club tho, maybe in other clubs its different..)
     
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  5. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    I think you have misunderstood @Cheung completely, which may be partly text not being a good medium for tone, and partly because you are trying to look for such an attitude in the post.

    I understood it as "smashing at the woman is often futile", rather than "here's some basic strategy because you know nothing", and I posted to relate to that sentiment.

    I understood "getting mad" as a response to your opponents 'not playing properly', rather than getting mad that they are presumed to be beating you via drops and clears. I want to make clear that I assume you are WINNING these matchups when guys are not playing properly because I have naturally given you credit of experience, regardless of gender.

    If you are losing in any scenario, then you have been outplayed, regardless of strategy. If this is so, then the comment regarding getting mad can only be sensibly interpreted to your opponents not giving it their all, rather than getting mad due to failing to reach clears/drops.

    So, are you winning all of these matchups? Perhaps I was wrong in presuming you were wiping the floor against MD pairs who aren't playing properly.
     
  6. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Seriously, I am only going to judiciously smash at the opponent if it suits my tactics and gains me an advantage. It doesn't matter if the opponent is a girl or a guy. The first part of the thread was more about not being smashed at. I am certainly not going to smash at @Borkya if she is going to counterattack my smashes with ease and turn the rally around - she may rant at me but why would I be playing a predictable shot?

    If there is food or drinks at stake, even better. I enjoy challenges like that.

    The exception is if it is a social game.
     
  7. snowandlights

    snowandlights Regular Member

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    At long last, a male perspective! :'D @Borkya No girls get told to go to the front at HIS club so it's not a problem, what are you complaining about?! Poor male players not being able to play with good opponents! :( :(
     
  8. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    His perspective is that 3 guys 1 gal creates a weak pairing on the XD side that the MD side have no trouble beating.

    Again, I ask - is this true in your case, @Borkya? It makes a big difference if you are losing to a pair who aren't giving it their all, compared to people who are being beaten and still aren't playing 'properly'.

    If you are losing as an XD pair versus an MD pair, then it's not about your gender anymore. People playing trickshots and 'holding back' equally applies when a weak man is playing with 3 stronger men. I've certainly been that weak man before, and I personally think if they are beating me, it doesn't matter how they do it, as any practice I get against them beating me will improve me. As long as they aren't letting me win, I'm fine.

    We can have that debate on whether this is sportsmanly or not (generally we'd say holding back in any form is unsportsmanly), but that discussion is not gender exclusive.
     
    #28 DarkHiatus, Dec 4, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
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  9. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    To the invitation of a smash: Alot players who are primed to await a smash, will be always in a better circumstance to return the high chance smash instead of everything else. So not to smash, even it's a very great option, can lead to the high chance to get it returned better because the opponent exactly awaits it. IMO to play the things which the opponents await and is prepared for is at higher level not successful. Your opponent will read you and you try to read her/him. If I play I try to do sometimes to integrate things which don't follow my structure, pattern or regular play and are not typical for me. Just to break up the reading and anticipation of my opponent. Especially when you play the same group or opponents over years, you need to overcome anticipation. He all heard Gill's "Change of pace" in such a situation when a smash or kill was more likely and something else was played.

    You often mentioned that you are a high level mixed doubles lady. I played against a few and they have much better defence skills than the man I play. They have a few solutions to turn the situation and I often thought this is the winner and got screwed badly because she returned it clever and made me struggle. So avoiding to smash to such a female player is more a kind of respect instead of saying "she is weak and can't take the heat."

    I also have a woman at my club who got smashed a shuttle directly into her eye as a child and have an detraction on one of her eyes. If I smash on her she will leave the court.

    As a mixed male I often smashed at females and I went more often into drama instead of a praise that I smashed at them. If I smashed a pair of glasses from the nose or made a bruise in the face or somewhere else nobody gave me the feedback "Yeah, I need to practice to return it and I want to improve." I got the feedback for beeing a rude bad ass and this is not necessary etc. They called for me to avoid it.

    So with this feedback and previous experience I can only do it wrong. I can't read as a male the mind of any women. I often heard the sentence "one more on me and I will leave the court" 9/10 times and 1/10 times that I should smash hard at her instead of playing a pussy shot.

    I have the question, if everybody clearly stated to you why they not smash at you or are you the constructor of your impressions and thoughts without any dialog? I would like to hear the reasons of the guys around you. I mean I named a few reasons in my experience why smashing at a woman is a hot topic from my experience as a man. Have you ever talked about the experience of the males around you? People try to avoid things and situations which gave mainly a negative feedback from a psychological way. We can discuss your experiences here and daily training, but it wouldn't solve your problem. I think you should talk to this guys. They are the only ones which give you a clear answer why they not smash at you. I made possible reasons from my experience clear and nothing has to do with pushing a woman into a weak player or the weak gender role. I'm playing for fun in my free time. IMO it is also a high exceptation to force in a game the opponent to do this instead of that. This is clearly out of your range and control area. And if I read how it bothers you to not smash at you, I would do the same if I face you in a serious match. Not because you are a woman, just because it bothers you and let you freak out and make you emotional and this can maybe made it easier for your opponent.

    I think most will call me an insensitive *******, but I just want to break up this stereotype thing and that there can be other reasons instead of "she is a woman" or gender specific patterns which shaped avoidings. I rarely experienced much drama for hitting male players and maybe this is the key why they do so?
     
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  10. OhSearsTower

    OhSearsTower Regular Member

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    exactly this combined with the overestimation (and partly cockiness) of so many of the women in my club

    --> which leads me to suspect we have such a case here with OP

    I could be very wrong, but thats what I sense.


    @ucantsee: Shortly ago a female told me that she wants men to smash hard at her. She doesnt want ppl to hold back.
     
  11. snowandlights

    snowandlights Regular Member

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    I guess sarcasm doesn’t come over well through text. Oh dear.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  12. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    Are you the only woman in your club? Maybe this is the reason why you get a special treatment. If you have a bunch of women in your club, it would be easy to talk about the males who do it. It's the best way, because you all know the guys equally good and experience the same.
     
    #32 ucantseeme, Dec 4, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  13. SolsticeOfLight

    SolsticeOfLight Regular Member

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    I know I give girls special treatment when I play uneven matches (3 women or 3 men).
    Why?
    Because when I go full out, I often get criticised for being "scary".
    I very much enjoy playing mixed or uneven doubles, so making all my partners/opponents scared isn't my goal. I'm very careful to tailor my playing style to my opponents and partner.

    The reason I don't do this with the men is that 1) there are plenty of them so that if one doesn't like playing with me, it's not much of a loss. 2) men have never told me it's scary to be smashed at.
     
  14. Rob3rt

    Rob3rt Regular Member

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    It's the same way at the clubs I have been playing at. And the last point is especially true. It's very, very rare that the woman in a 1 woman/3 men game is strong enough to make it enjoyable for every player, if they are all competitive and not just casual players. Even then it's probably a different kind of game because of the play style, which spoils it for the 3 men.


    I had similar experiences. I don't know if you are talking about competitive matches, because if so, I can't understand an attitude like that at all. If it's happening in training, it only emphasizes the point I want to make. It's important that people with the same goals play together. Some want to improve and get better, some just want to have fun and some want to annoy people with bad sportsmanship and trash talk, and so on. If they mix, it will always be difficult for everybody to enjoy.

    I've met female players that get annoyed at players smashing at them (even in competition), because they can't get it back or because they don't particularly enjoy it. Some get hit by a shuttle and leave the court, not because they are physically hurt, but because they are offended somehow. They expect their opponents to make the game enjoyable for them. That's just too much to ask for, in my opinion. I don't like this kind of attitude. If I were to play a much better player, I don't expect him to give me a good game and just play to a certain level without getting me under too much pressure. If he crushes me, so be it. I'm okay with that, but most women I've met on court are not. I tend to avoid these players.



    But, because this is clearly not the case with you, Borkya, you should either tell them directly that you are competitive, want to improve and don't want people to go easy on you, as you already mentioned or just play your best and if they lose because they didn't try everything (not smashing at you) there's nothing you can do really. I think most of them just don't know any better and maybe had bad experiences like ucantseeme mentioned.

    One thing I'm wondering is, what you do when they don't smash at you? Do you punish them for that? Smashing winners, killing bad drops, tight spinning net shots? If so, why are they not changing their game then? Are they losing then or upping their game? Because if it's working to play punch clears or drops then they are doing the right thing, imo.
     
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  15. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    Has anybody pointed out to them the numerous objective criteria which you have described in detail here? I explicitly don't mean you; has none of the other guys said to them it's nowhere near reasonable to try to "coach" better female players but not worse male players?

    Again, I am fairly certain that behaviors like not smashing to female players (as opposed to, maybe, not smashing to low-skilled players of either gender) or unreasonably and offensively "coaching"/yelling at female (or any) players would not be tolerated in the clubs I play in.
    I do have played against mixed doubles where the woman always stayed in the front instead of playing proper mixed or level doubles strategy, but I don't believe I have ever played in a club where that would be tolerated - if only because such a "strategy" would be a very serious impediment to winning any matches.

    All in all, you point out excellent objective criteria, and I will look out for them in myself as well as in other players in my clubs. But as far as I understand your posts (as a non-native speaker I may miss some nuances), there is something more to it, you said

    What other problematic signs am I missing?

    I don't think anybody here in this thread has tried to do so. Could you quote instance where it happened? On the contrary, those that were aware that you are "Badminton" Becky Ances before your post would have known you to be nearly gao shou; probably one of the highest-skilled players on this forum.
     
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  16. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    But is this really restricted to women? I actually only remember three instances where someone asked this of me - probably because my smash isn't the hardest and fairly easy to return - and in all cases it were men. I told them I wanted to play badminton, not badminton-with-weird-home-rules. One said nothing, one learned to defend or at least get out of the way, and one went to a less competitive group.
     
  17. Rob3rt

    Rob3rt Regular Member

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    Of course it's not restricted to women, but it's more prominent with women, in my experience.

    But I also had a similar experience with a guy. He is a weaker player than the guys in my group, so when I play him I try new shots, deception and so on. Not smashing everything and killing every shot I can. Once he said to me and my partner: "Come on, you're not really trying." So I told my partner, who was also holding back a bit, to beat them without letting them get double digits. And we did. After the game he told his partner: "Well, I didn't like that game at all...". Some people you just can't please, I guess. :D
     
  18. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    IMO not going berzerk on every game can be really benefical and inspiring for your whole game because you need to find other ways to score. Which maybe give the impression of a break game can really give you chance to work on other things. Especially at clubs where pure drilling and training is just a small part of the whole time, you need to take some issues into games.

    I played a few weeks ago one of the best men doubles players at our club. My male partner and I got the chance to play him and he partnered a slightly weaker player than me and my partner. This guy didn't hit any smash and tried to also make it very difficult for me and my partner to smash. I felt like I can't do anything. Nothing worked which I tried. He placed everything into gaps, played absolutely deceptive and tricky, changed the pace, created confusing and so on. He slowed down when we didn't await it and was really good at making any shot for us as difficult as he can. We lost in 2 tight sets. At the first moment I thought what a crappy game, I felt helpless than I thought what a great experience. If I can't smash or forced to smash not much I see how incomplete my whole game is in many other departments. I also noticed if my opponents don't smash we lack creativity. Normally we play an attacking game and if our opponent attack we are good at counterattacking the smash. He cut out good chances for us to smash and also didn't gave us the chance to counterattack. This was really eyeopening to me where I'm weak.
     
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  19. Borkya

    Borkya Regular Member

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    I feel like the "smash tactic" conversation is a bit of a sidetrack. I wasn't saying not smashing=sexism. It's all contextual in the game and in the style of play of the players. You can't just play one game with a guy and he doesn't smash once and I get all upset. It's more over the course of a whole evening, or week even, and seeing how a guy plays with others and then changes when I'm there.

    And yeah, I've talked about it with a lot of guys. I am not one to keep my feelings hidden inside. I actually get super mad at my regular partner because he feels just horrible about smashing to a woman and he is a player who highly respects women and women playing badminton. He says he is more scared of himself that his smashes are hard and fast, but he feels like he can't control it properly and it might go errant and hit someone (the woman) in the face. He also doesn't smash a serve when a woman serves for the same reason. I tell him how disrespectful it is to a woman to not play his best, but he just can;t do it. He feels so horrible and rude.

    But it's not the smash I am worried about. That's just one example. But it's really much more like ohsearstower said

    "Girls here generally overestimate their performance however. If we step on court with 3 men and 1 women, the game is pretty much useless. I feel like very seldom thats recognized by the women. They enjoy it because they have "good" players around them.
    I always try to pair up with the girl so its a challenge and i can go all out. If i have to play with the other guy its a waste of time for me."

    Trust me, the women know it and recognize it, but what can they do? I find that women tend to sit out on the sides more often than men, not because they are tired but because they know they are an imposition. But I thank you for your honesty for saying what many guys feel (but don't want to directly say.)

    As for me, I kinda consider playing with me as a price you have to pay to play at my club. That's how I got over the insecurity of it all (although if I'm being honest, I still struggle with inferior/insecure feelings.) It also helps that I am my coaches favorite student and he insists on me playing. (He's the court boss too so he is there all day, everyday). Even back when I was the lowest level beginner people would use to me to get to my coach because he is such a high player they would be nervous to ask him to play with them directly. But if they played with me first they "earned" the right to ask him to play. So now I kinda use that to bolster my self-esteem. "You wanna play here with us? Well, I'm part of the package."

    And I play everyday for hours and I hate taking breaks. So there is kinda no getting away from me. I know it has to be frustrating for some of the people in my club, but I was there in the beginning and I will be there after they are gone and I don't play to make friends. (Even though I now have many really good friends from playing, but it's a byproduct, not my purpose.) At this point the regular players are used to me and my rants and outbursts about equality. They also know how serious I am, how much I've improved and I can beat them about half the time now, so they take me serious. It's just when new people come the whole process has to start over again.

    So that's why I get mad when guys don't put their all. I feel like I'm just wasting my time. I'd rather lose within a few minutes than win against a pair that is much better than me.

    And most women I've talked to about this feel the same way I do. I've never heard a woman complain about being smashed on (though I play in Chinese, my non-native language so I tend to not eavesdrop on courts around me). I also play with competitive players and most of the women I play with train with a coach as well.

    That's why I wish more women would speak up on this thread. I'm interested to hear why a woman would think smashing, or playing hard, is rude and how they feel about that. Or, like rob3rt said, some women expect men to play so they have fun? That is a weird idea to me too and I'd be curious as to hear why. I know maybe I am a bit too intense sometimes so I'm curious about the other side.

    And just for the record I DID get smashed directly in the eye, just a few weeks ago. (I know it was my own dumb fault for being in the wrong place so I can't blame the guy that hit it. He was just doing what was right.) It even broke blood vessels in my eyeball. But I didn't want the game to stop so we kept going. Hardcore yo! ;)
     
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  20. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    The hardcore thing is definitely a big thing. I find guys tend to be more competitive overall. For example, I can count the number of females I've seen diving (or trying to dive) on one hand. Note that there's trying a shot and stumbling after having not anticipated being unbalanced, and there is the dive where you fully acknowledge you will be on the your hands after the shot before you even move - the former I've seen a few, the latter, very very few.

    I come from a club that is somewhat unique in that half of the members play leisurely, and the other half play in local leagues quite competitively, but we all train together 3 times a week.

    There are females on both sides (we are lucky to have quite a good ratio actually). Some relish the idea of playing against a top pair going all out, even if they lose 4-21, and others will not, preferring to play a WD to have a bit more of a leisurely game.

    Another dimension is that we have a lot of 60+ ladies players who played at high levels in their youth. Again there is a difference - some enjoy a fast paced all-out game, and others just want to keep fit and are coming more for the social side as badminton has always played a big part in their lives.

    It's up to everyone on court to manage expectations, and I would say it is unfortunate that you are in a minority opinion in your area such that you need to speak out. As long as there is agreement beforehand, then nobody should be left dissatisfied.
     
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