Help with Stroke Please!!

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Mason, Mar 15, 2018.

  1. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

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    In my Doubles games I’m actually in the front majority of the time as I tend to be more aggressive and move forward a lot so I disagree with your analysis there. I of course can’t move forward if I’m smashing from the middle of the back court .....but when I’m along either sides I move forward quite a bit if the opportunity presents itself

    I also wonder why I should not land on my left leg first first during my back court shots?
    In almost every shot of of these professional women Doubles players , they land with their left foot first then the right comes down.
    I do not see them scissor kicking , switching legs in mid air and landing them at the same time.
    Check our these times during the games
    1:00,1:07,1:35,2:08,2:44,2:46,3:04,3:19

     
  2. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Do this exact exercise in the first minute of the video.





    Film yourself doing the same exercise on the same part of the court. Be really strict with yourself about the positioning of the feet on the lines.

    I would be very interested to see if you can pull it off successfully.

    This exercise is to help your hip and right leg come forward (instead of the hip stopping and right leg splaying out to the side).

    It also helps you to step back with your left leg more (you don't do it at all or very little) when you do the basic over head stroke.

    There probably are other similar videos but I think this is the only one I have seen which uses court markings to help you train exactly where you put your feet.
     
    #522 Cheung, May 6, 2019
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
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  3. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

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    Thank you , this is very practical!
     
  4. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    I think he didn't explain it that well.

    Your left foot position after the stroke is closer to the net than the right foot. What we would like to see is the left and right foot having exchanged positions relative to the net when you play the snash.

    Yes, your left foot should land on the ground earlier in time.
     
  5. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    @Cheung is correct. However, you are still not getting my original point (or maybe you do but haven't acknowledged it).

    Watch the timestamps I mentioned in your video carefully I.e 0.25x slow motion. You contact the shuttle, as you pivot around your left foot (which is perfectly fine, though), then your take another step with your left foot, then you land your right foot. You make 3 distinct movements, which is abundantly clear in the example 1:55.

    Now watch you same video you linked. The girls land the left, and immediately land the right (which is almost always in front of the left, but if it's sideways, they have landed it faster to allow a quick chasse forwards). There are 2 distinct movements.

    There is one shot you make at 1:25, where you land your left and step forward with your right. However, the right steps forwards really slow because all your weight is on your left leg (backwards).

    Again in that video linked, there is a beautiful example of what you want to achieve at 2:50. Look how she sets up, pivots around her left foot and IMMEDIATELY her right foot lands. Her left foot doesn't hop around after she hits that shot. Her weight is forward so she can very quickly chasse forward to cover the midcourt (and she can always come back again if she needs to). There are loads of examples in the video where they land in other positions, but you need to look at relevant examples which are responses to high lifts.
     
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  6. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    The issue is you are off balance after you hit the smash and you need an extra movement to regain your balance. Against good players, that extra step (inefficient) is a big disadvantage.


    If you want to get better, learn how to do a good scissor technique. It's a fundamental technique. All these players already know how to do a scissor kick as their backup and keep their balance. You can't do an advanced technique well if you don't have the foundation.
     
  7. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

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    I 100% agree , but are you suggesting in my doubles games for me to a scissor kick when I’m in the rear court until I get good at it ??
     
    #527 Mason, May 6, 2019
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  8. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    Yes, that is exactly what we are saying. I mean, you're in a habit so much in doubles that you're not scissor kicking properly when you get the high lift down the middle that would 100% be scissor kicked, just like the girl did at 2:50 in the deep corner on a high lift.

    And now you see why dedicated training/drills are so important.

    And you also see why playing mostly games is detrimental to progression.
     
  9. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    So no surprises that people are highlighting your footwork as a primary area for improvement. You yourself know that it needs work, and your have been attempting to rectify it.

    There are a huge number of problems with your footwork, and people have highlighted the most obvious one which is that your kick through isn't correct. This is a problem in the middle of the court and round the head, but isn't something I'd enclurage in the forehand corner where a block jump should be used. This block jump footwork would match the swing practice you did that you copied from badminton family video tutorial. The secret to a good smash is not in the rotation of the hips, but the transference of energy from low to high. The kick through footwork is one instance of this, not the only instance.

    But am I the only one who looks at the video, notes the incorrect "ready to hit position" with a grip that is too close to panhandle and thinks it's entirely sensible that the focus is still on perfecting the swing with the correct grip? I think it makes sense that your focus at the moment is to perfect the swings and not worry about the feet. I.e. to get into your game the good prep and swing you do in the garage.

    So is the general consensus here that the OP should move on to footwork before he's even fixed the first problem that was identified? To me this is nonsense. I say perfect the swing and then worry about the feet when you understand where you need to be stood and how to contact the shuttle with the correct grip. If the arm can do the perfect thing, then start on the feet. Obviously it would be ideal if the feet are doing the correct thing: but are the feet preventing the correct swing overhead? Potentially, but not in all cases - I'd expect the swing to be much better before I declare the feet to be the limiting factor.

    Now clearly the problem here is that the OP is trying to fix everything through self analysis and doesn't have access to on court coaching. The question we should help answer is: given this is the case what approach is best? Is it to flip flop between problems as some are partially resolved meaning other things are the immediate priority (meaning we can now ignore the panhandle grip in favour of targeting the footwork)? Or should you identify one problem and work hard to fix it? When should you move on from the first problem? Once fully resolved or partially resolved such that it is still holding you back later? I suspect the answer will change in different situations for different issues. Obviously the ideal is to fix everything at once!! But if that were easy we'd all be professional.

    Looking at the most recent video, I can see improvements in footwork already for which you should be commended - your speed backwards using chasses has greatly increased. I'd agree with those here however that you should explicitly work on the scissor kick and initiate the stroke earlier. The drill Cheung references is great and is the same one taught by KowiChan in his videos which I really like. If you can perfect this footwork pattern, and combine it with some half court drills with a good practice partner, you will see significant improvements in the long term. You also need to get into a better position relative to the shuttle - further back and to the left of the shuttle, this will allow you to move the bodyweight forwards more easily and I think may prevent the right leg flaring out to the side. However I would not do this footwork practice at the expense of the overhead practice you're doing - go hit another 1000 shuttles in practice and see if you can get your garage swing into games. Then it's done and you never need to worry about using the wrong grip ever again!!

    Keep up the good work - incremental improvements are hard, as everyone here without a coach knows!! And many with a coach also know how hard it is! Unfortunately simply telling you that playing mostly games makes it hard to improve won't help you if you have no other options - but you're on the slowest path to improvement without coaching or drilling - there's no shortcut. So get back to work! And good luck!
     
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  10. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

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    Ok thanks for the post :)
    My focus will still be on perfecting my stroke!! I agree with your methods here by working on the stoke first and maybe the scissor jump for now

    I also see improvement week to week although very minor which is why I like recording myself.

    Thanks again for all of your help
     
  11. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    The others are right about the importance of the scissor kick for this stroke and in general for injury prevention purposes. I suggest you practice the correct footwork pattern as advised by Cheung daily in addition to your other practices. Try to do it in warm ups if you can, but be comfortable with the intent of each session: is it footwork or stroke or a bit of both at different times.

    Good luck!
     
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  12. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

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    'round here....
    What exactly is the advantage of a block jump (china jump) when there's time for a scissor jump? Also, a black jump can/should also involve some (varying amount depending on many factors) leading hip movement as well.
    Here, you even say that, so the leading shoulder is a problem on the forehand side as well, no matter what footwork is used.
    While I agree that my ideal picture would be less panhandle, that cannot stand as a fact. I know a player who has played (and will play again) in the second highest division in Germany with a grip that's closer to panhandle. I do not think that at this moment, the grip is the limiting factor.
    01_Mason_ready_position.PNG
    I don't think this is the limiting factor, that's why I think he needs to get that on court. I know there's worse images, I didn't search for any, I just took the first one from the video that was opened at this moment. I talked about the ready position just yesterday, I think.
    Nobody suggested to ignore the swing, maybe that it looks like it only reading the last few posts, but the consensus was to add some footwork practice and slowly move away from the very static swing in the garage, because that needs improvement and that is something that @Mason can do alone, without a partner. It took into account his training environment which is basically non-existent.
    Look at his feet and knees while he moves, lunges, jumps, lands.... do yo really think injury prevention is nonsense? If you're referring to someone suggesting to not work on the swing anymore, nobody did.
    You even say he should do his garage swing on court, so his swing can be better. what is limiting it in your opinion? And even if it's not the feet, it will help. The garage swings are much more relaxed than the on-court swings. Why is that? Wouldn't the kinetic chain help to get some easy power, hopefully resulting in less tension, less trying to force it. He might still try to force it too much, but it would still be progress.
    Are you trying to provoke someone? Even you only said it's too close to panhandle, implying that it's not panhandle, now you changed your opinion?
    What if this is the culprit of getting the garage swing on court? What if it's a timing issue (due to starting to late) that let's him tension up too much in the long run (now) leading to going back to the bad habits (that work on court). He plays more than he can actually train badminton, so I don't see how a solution can be to work on the swing only when there's so much more that might be the reason why he's not getting the better swing he can do on court. I coach someone who has similar problem, getting the focus away from everything else, focusing on the hip, helped him a lot (reaching up higher, being more relaxed, resulting in more power, resulting in being more relaxed and more confident). Before, he had an alright swing off-court, but was way too tense, starting to late, resulting in hitting too late and not stepping through. I'm not saying that this has to work now, but what if it doesn't? It's still a step in the right direction.
    This, I really don't get. When standing more left of the shuttle, how does it prevent me from flaring out to the right? Don't I need to get further to the right to hit then?
    And now you're suggesting what has been the consensus all along. @Mason doesn't get a lot on-court practice time, even less with a training partner. That's why I (and others) suggested to add some footwork pattern that he can do alone, even without a court. The last posts focused on the footwork, but nobody suggested to ignore the swing. It's trying to get a better swing (that he has done before) on court. This is taking into account the environment. He does not have the option to train three times a week with a coach, but playing is a big part of it.
    Until you move to the next stroke...

    @MSeeley, you seem to think that the grip is the limiting factor. I really don't believe that. I actually think that Mason will fall back into bad habits on court for many other reasons, resulting in going more towards panhandle. Even then, I do not think that the grip is the limiting factor and I don't think it will be for a long time. I think this is pretty much the only part where we disagree.

    My suggestion was and still is to...
    • keep practicing dry swings, but slowly start adding one or two steps
    • keep practicing footwork separately, focus on two corners for some time, then move to four corners; do good/correct repetitions rather than fast repetitions
    • add 180 jumps to your warm up, doesn't have to be a whole lot, I'm thinking of maybe 2 times 6 jumps, just to remind you what the leading hip feels like
    • on-court, during games, focus on your ready to hit position and initiating the stroke with your hip earlier
    • on-court, when you get the chance to train with a partner, have him feed shuttles, focus on your swing, ignore the footwork
    Sorry, if I caused some misunderstanding by focusing my posts on footwork too much.
     
  13. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

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    No problem I appreciate the help
     
  14. Obito

    Obito Regular Member

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    Would you be able to hang a shuttle down from the roof ? If you could, hang it at the highest point that you could reach and practice your scissor kick swing with it. This practice would help you improve your stroke and scissor kick. Start from ready position feet not too wide or too close, lift your shoulder 90 degree, swing and pronate, step through then footwork back to your ready position, and repeat.
     
  15. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

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    Yes I can and I have started doing that :)
     
  16. Ffly

    Ffly New Member

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    From the first half of the video, the technique was mostly correct, shots were taken high enough with your elbow reaching higher.
    However on the second half of the video, you were trying to add too much strength in it: forcing too much on the pronation, taking the shuttle lower, being stiffer in general, etc.

    Forcing on your arm and racket will not make the shuttle go faster if the technique goes to **** because of it.
    Instead, try to incorporate more of your core: you are not using your hip and abs at all. Add one/two more components in the motion: start pivoting your hip, and your abs/chest, THEN lift your elbow.

    As you said, you can reach up higher than that and you already noticed it. Small trick that I used to do was to imagine that I had to hit the shuttle with the frame (upper part) instead of the strings. That changed my timing a little bit and did the work.


    With so many different people giving advices, there is bound to have some friction on where to go next.

    Some people would like to see a better hand technique before going on the next step, some other would like to see the footwork corrected first (which may be linked to a better/easier hand technique), etc.

    Anyway, following @MSeeley, I'm more on the side of correcting his hand technique (adding components per components, baby steps) because it is still not correct (his garage training and application in match is totally different) right now before going on more footwork (even though we all pointed out the obvious to start chasseing, etc). That is not to say they are both as important.

    @Mason, could you make a video of you practicing footwork (chasse steps in all 6 corners) ? that would be a good first step
     
  17. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

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    Thank you , nice an practical for me to implement
     
  18. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

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    I was very fatigued going into the games last night from all of the footwork that I’ve done and yet I still seems to move around the court at a better pace. I went an hour early and did a bunch of rear court footwork movements and then also practiced drive shots. As usual during the matches I improved in some areas and regressed in others.
    I have family coming in town so I won’t be playing for over a week. During that time I’ll continue to train at home as much as possible

     
  19. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Looks like some improvement with the right leg coming forward a number of times after hitting the shuttle.
     
  20. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

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    I was not able to play badminton for 10 days which allowed me to just focus on practice
    So I practiced more footwork drills at home and some more shadow swings. Here are the things that noticed.
    I was much faster on the court . You will not see it much in this clip but my movement specifically going to the front court was so faster. I also felt smoother all around the court. I think my body movement has improved and I really didn’t do any of that goofy right leg flaring thing.......I didn’t have the correct starting position with my racket so I think that caused me to hit the shuttle a bit late and made my stroke sub par.

    Overall though I have a good day at the club. I went 45 min early and did 25 minutes of footwork and the able to do a longer warmup of Clears , drop defense and then I was able to drop. I also was winning games against people that in the past I would get crushed.....
     
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