how do you deal with stubborn students?

Discussion in 'Coaching Forum' started by kwun, Oct 18, 2004.

  1. kwun

    kwun Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2002
    Messages:
    40,241
    Likes Received:
    1,268
    Occupation:
    BC Janitor
    Location:
    Santa Clara, CA, USA
    if you have a student who insist on learning things his own way, how do you deal with such a student?

    for example, when you are teaching footwork, you emphasize on the preparation posture and bounce while this student ignores you and proceed to practice the actual steps. do you let him be or somehow try to convince him otherwise?
     
  2. 604badder

    604badder Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2003
    Messages:
    654
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    Full time badminton fanatic, and student
    Location:
    Vancouver BC - Kirkland WA
    Having done a lot of teaching (not badminton but I believe the principles are the same), my view on the issue is that when the student is ready, the teacher will arrive. Cliche? Yes. But it's true. Can the teacher do a certain amount to help the student along the way, yes, but it is limited in my opinion. In your case kwun, why don't you video tape the student's footwork or even better in a game. Use one where the student loses as an example, and let the student see him/herself stumble with bad footwork or making bad shots. If that fails to convince them, I'd have to say this student is not interested in self improvement and that there is another unknown priority for them at this point in their badminton journey.

    At the end of the day, the initiative must come from the student. (I'm assuming an adult/teenager student here. Young children I believe is another case all together)
     
  3. gerry

    gerry Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2002
    Messages:
    133
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    UK
    Kwun, not sure what I would do as I've never experienced that.

    What's the situation, is it a group session or is he paying you for 1 to 1 coaching ? What age is he ?
    Personally I wouldn't tolerate it in a group situation, my authority would be demeaned and others may follow him. In a 1 to 1 case, I may be more tolerant but that would be the last session unless he agreed to allow me to help him as I see fit.
    I suppose I am from the old school concerning discipline and have lost players because of it ( no talking, sitting down or looking around the hall when I'm working).....but so be it.

    If it is a group session does he find the task requred too easy ? if so and he is far more talented than the others then I may suggest that he does a little more, so possibly I would discuss it with him then he does as I suggest or we simply part company.
     
  4. jamesd20

    jamesd20 Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Messages:
    5,436
    Likes Received:
    3
    Occupation:
    Construction
    Location:
    Leeds, UK
    I am not sure whether the student is doing it because he doesnt want to or because he doesnt realise. Obviousley you would treat the situation differently for both cases.

    If he didnt realise it, then showing a video would help. Also what may help is telling him to start in a frog type position (squatting), then beginning the footwork pattern from there. This should make it feel more natural to be lower.

    If he just doesnt want to, then just dont let him play untill he does. If you have to let him play ( IE in a school lesson) then make him stand in the ready position for ten minutes, to make up for the times he didnt do it properly. (this also frees' up court space for you) :D :D
     
  5. Dill

    Dill Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2003
    Messages:
    1,922
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    Lazy git (my coach can verify this)
    Location:
    Glasgow, Scotland
    Firstly make the student feel at ease by making them laugh, it breaks down the barriers.

    Secondly explain why you are doing what you are doing and give him/her the aims and reasons why it is good to do this.

    Taking it from your own experiences it is often more easy to relate to someone, if, for instance a specific part of a footwork routine if carried out wrongly will put pressure on the lower back when twisting because it is not being done properly, ask them if they have any experiences with this - moreoften than not they do, so can further relate to why they have to change or do something.

    Ask the person if they have anything they would like to add or are not sure about, it is easier to understand if we know why we are doing it and questions are an integral part of this.

    The most important thing for me is to watch and see if they get it because sometimes what they think they do and what they actually do are two completely different things.

    I think the key is good communication in a lighthearted way mainly aimed at beginners, higher level players need to be treated totaly differently.

    If they ommit the split step (bounce) then get them to do four corners or just the front two or just the back two, they will soon realise they are missing something around the base position which you are then going to go on and demonstrate with the split making the whole movement easier, more fluid and more effective.
     
  6. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    21,081
    Likes Received:
    2,864
    Occupation:
    wannabe badminton phototaker
    Location:
    Outside the box
    You need the input of another experienced and respected coach;)

    Kwun, it may be the coach who doesn't do this, therefore the student will think "hey, the coach doesn't do it and gets away with it......"
     
  7. prophet

    prophet Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    181
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    teacher
    Location:
    San Francisco/Mountain View
    When teaching, there is no "one right way". Some students will listen attentively and want to emulate everything you say, others will be stubborn or refuse to do anything you tell them. Your goal as a teacher or coach is to impart your knowledge to the student, and in doing that hopeful that the student will improve and learn the game. The steps in doing that will constantly be changing, in other words you as the teacher will try whatever method you can (and even new methods) to help the student to learn. Even for stubborn student, you can't do it this way or that way, you just try different ways and hope that eventually one method will be effective and get through to the student. Often times it the combined efforts of the many methods that finally gets through to the student.
     
  8. DaN_fAn

    DaN_fAn Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2005
    Messages:
    615
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    india
    If he's doing things the wrong way,footwork for instance there is bound to be that 'discomfort' factor.ask him if he feels he is moving smoothly.if he is not,i.e he is using the wrong technique, he himself will feel that there is something wrong somewhere.u could tell him the right way[by demonstrating it not ,just saying it orally]and then ask him to do the correct movement in front of u repeatedly.perhaps doing this for a few days will help.u could also ask him to carefully observe the movement of better players.if he does all this with sincerity then he should become better.if this helps then good and if it doesn't u could forget about him if u think he doesn't have what it takes.but if u feel he can be a really good player,then perhaps carefully monitoring him[observing his offcourt and oncourt activities] could help.sometimes if nothing clicks anywhere one idea would be to teach him the correct technique for long time,make him practice it for sometime in front of u[not too long],then ask him to take a few days break off from play inorder to erase the wrong technique from his mind.[this technique can be really useful if employed]
     
  9. wilfredlgf

    wilfredlgf Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    2,583
    Likes Received:
    11
    Occupation:
    Security Engineer
    Location:
    Malaysia
    How have this thread been living without any of my semi-valuable input? I have been having trouble with a few stubborn kids who just won't listen. :)

    One of the most common way is 'show and tell'. Get their attention by letting them see you in action, let them see you hit the smash, do that net tumble, do that backhand clear, move like a machine in doubles etc. When they get sufficiently impressed, they will more than likely to ask how you did it, or how this and that. When you explain, you don't give them too much room for creativity just yet. Tell them, in order to do said strokes, you need to practice this and that.

    "I spent hours for months doing this footwork thingy. I used to think that it's pretty useless anyway and the training at the start was, in short 'painful'. But a while later I got used to it, my movement got faster and faster. I get into positions quickly and most importantly get to do the shots I want to do instead of what my opponents want me to. And to my surprise, all the strokes became 'correct. Blah blah".

    And when the both of you do get to watch skilled players in action, point out that "you see that guy there? His movement is so fast I haven't seen any backhands yet. Ah... wrong return. Good job *watching the guy kill a poor return at the net*. Good eh? Needs practice. He had been doing what I did last time (hopefully your student should have begun whatever you wanted them to do by then). You will be that good once you get the part we are doing correct".

    At a later time you deem suitable, challenge him or her. If they can see the difference in their performance then compared to before, you have a new loyal acolyte. ;)

    I am more towards a psychologist and tactician than a technical coach, so others may have other input.
     
  10. cheekygen

    cheekygen Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2004
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    0
    The first thing the coach have to find out is why the student behaving that way. Is the student's behavior consistent all the time? What are the facial expressions they have when you talk to them? Is the student communicating with you and ask questions? There are several possibilities...... maybe the student have an insecurities and haven't trust the coach enough to eccept what he said. Psychologically, the student might just want the coach's attention but on the other way round, they might have difficulties to change what they have been used to and comfortable with. It's like changing a habit and it takes time for a person to change. I realize that a coach need to be very patient and know what is the personality of the players well. This is because by knowing the player's attitude and personality could in dealing with
    their behavior in trainning. The student might be lack of motivation to learn.. for they don't realize/know what is their goal or purpose in learning .... want to improve in badminton but why? They simply don't have enough reason to improve because there are no objective of it.... therefore the coach's perception and the player's perception is not the same.... when a coach and a player's goal/objective is incongruence, tranning become meaningless and dull.
     
  11. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    21,081
    Likes Received:
    2,864
    Occupation:
    wannabe badminton phototaker
    Location:
    Outside the box
    Several excellent reasons there as possible explanations.

    It may also be a combination of these problems as well.
     
  12. Jinryu

    Jinryu Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    463
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Librarian, RacketsportsMontreal.ca owner
    Location:
    Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    The teacher's job isn't to force feed anything of course, but I say that the last thing you want to do is "let him be". There's a saying, anyone can teach a student who wants to learn, but not everyone can save someone who doesn't want to be a student.

    Nonetheless there's only so much a teacher can do-- turning stubborn students is, in my opinion, largely a matter of factors entirely out of our control. We can make the conditions favorable for them should they decide to accept, but they're the ones who have to take that step through that door.

    It probably relates back also to those threads about the reasons why people are playing baminton in the first place-- do they really want to improove for example? Are they just there because their parents are forcing them to be less couch-potatoish? Or are they spending all their time at the courts just oogling that girl/guy :D

    But assuming that they are there to improove and just think that their own method is better, I'd have to agree with the previous posts that say "let the student come to you". The best you can do is set an example and make yourself available when they do decide to approach you, and make sure that the same problems that they exhibit are equally corrected in other students as well.

    Videotaping them in action is probably the best way to emperically demonstrate to them the merits of your teachings though. I'd just add that, don't just video them playing games, but video them doing drills-- you want to single out the variable that you want to correct. By isolating a given practice, you can more quantifiably compare the inefficiencies of a particular part of their technique compared to that of their peers.

    Also, depending on the part of their technique that you want to correct (be it footwork, stroke, etc) perhaps if it comes down to it, you can really confront the thing head on-- maybe even take the racket out of their hands and make them repetitively drill that particular aspect until they get sick of it. If you can't get through their concious stubbornness, their body will eventually get so used to the exercise that maybe their subconcious will just act up and take over, installing the "proper" technique over their own. Familiarity is what makes something comfortable after all-- most of the time when people use sloppy technique, it's because sloppy as it is, it's more comfortable than correct technique.

    ALthough you can't force people to learn, you can certainly make it so that it's "the best way out" :rolleyes: Put them in a situation where the merits of that technique are as obvious as possible, and the disadvantages of their current practices are highlighted.

    For example, when I used to teach kickboxing, people sometimes used to get lazy and not keep their hands (guard) up. So we'd have these drills where they'd be doing their punches on a heavy bag or focus mitts, and someone would be standing behind them with a foam bat. If they put down their guard, whack! They learned fast. :rolleyes:
     
    #12 Jinryu, Mar 31, 2005
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2005
  13. jchan04

    jchan04 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2008
    Messages:
    677
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Mississauga, Canada
    you hit him lol with a racket. that's the asian culture of discipline.
    actually it depends, because the younger the children the more likely they want to change unless it's a close friend or relative. children are more likely to listen to foreign authority.
     
  14. yy_ling

    yy_ling Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2006
    Messages:
    774
    Likes Received:
    2
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Singapore
    you can always let him learn why his method is wrong the hard way.
    let him continue his wrong footwork(ignoring the bounce). and play against a stronger player. when he loses then he will know why it is important to do things correctly
     
  15. baka-kun

    baka-kun Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    edmonton
    or just beat him with ur racket.. or a broom. use the asian way...beat them until they learn.. i swear i was watching this guy train his daughter(around 6year old) every time she miss a shot her dad would be angry, like super angry. and when she play on ur own and she miss she always have this worry face on her face that something bad is going to happen to her as she glance to her dad. so i'm thinking...if u yell at them maybe they listen, my volleyball coach yell like crazy when u do something wrong and it works. even though it might now the best way but u want something that work..then start getting mad.
     
  16. baka-kun

    baka-kun Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    edmonton
    sorry alot of typo but try to make the best of it.. thx :D
     
  17. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2006
    Messages:
    26,902
    Likes Received:
    21
    Occupation:
    Professional Badminton Coach & Badminton Promoter
    Location:
    Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
    Coaches require patience; students require comprehension

    .
    Hi kwun,

    There are many useful methods suggested in this thread. :):):)

    Yes, what coaches require is lots of patience; what students require is lots of comprehension.

    Regarding footwork, I teach footwork as dancing on the court. Every movement/step is very structured and predetermined.

    Students get to dance on the court with predetermined footsteps. I use music to give them tempo and to allow them to enjoy the rhythm of their dance. Slower tempo when they are beginners; faster when they are used to the movements. No shuttlecocks are involved. They dance with their rackets with stroke productions involved.

    Using music is quite effective and enjoyable. Many of my students are now recommending others to learn how to dance at my classes. They are really enjoying it. When doing as a group, they are doing 'synchronised dancing'. :D:D:D

    Cheers... chris@ccc
    :):):)
    .
     
    #17 chris-ccc, Apr 7, 2008
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2008
  18. jchan04

    jchan04 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2008
    Messages:
    677
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Mississauga, Canada
    :p
    just hope that they don't dance off court and join the local dance hall :p
    I have to agree that sounds like a great innovative idea for practicing badminton with music. and to tell the students to keep a constant rhythm and let them be constantly on the move instead of standing still. that is a great idea, did you come up with that?
     
  19. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2006
    Messages:
    26,902
    Likes Received:
    21
    Occupation:
    Professional Badminton Coach & Badminton Promoter
    Location:
    Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
    Borrowed the idea from the great boxer, Mohammad Ali

    .
    Hahaha...... I borrowed the idea from the great boxer, Mohammad Ali. :D:D:D
    .
     
  20. trainedtotrain

    trainedtotrain Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    trainer
    Location:
    singapore
    Hi,

    Athletes are human beings. If the athlete is not interested in the footwork than go to another training program like back court drills WITH shuttles.

    Footwork is not taught this way. When the athlete starts to improve on his/her technical skills than proceed to the strategic drills WITH shuttles.

    Eventually the athlete will face the problem and understand that the footwork competency is not there to support the drills.

    I guess I don't need to elaborate further. Enjoy coaching cause coaching is fun !
     

Share This Page