how does power transfer from delaying when the foot comes down, in the overhead backhand clear?

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by ralphz, Dec 17, 2019.

  1. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    how does power transfer (better) from delaying when the foot down , in the overhead backhand clear? (vs not delaying when the foot comes down, and just having the foot down before the stroke starts)

    I have heard that if the foot is down before the stroke begins, then there is less power, than if the foot comes down during the time that the arm comes up.

    But what is the reason for that?

    What exactly is going on how is the power transferring from the foot?

    I understand more in the case of a forehand clear if a person does it by stretching up, (from foot rather than hips so much), then there's very much a line from the foot up the leg through the hip to the shoulder through the arm to the hand.

    But I dont really see how delaying the foot, to during when the arm comes up, helps the power..

    I was speaking to a very good player recently and they said it certainly helps though they weren't sure why.
     
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  2. Ouchie

    Ouchie Regular Member

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    It is important to identify the true cause of an effect when working backwards. E.g. Played a poor backhand and my foot was on the ground therefore that is the reason? Really? Seems more like not being in the right place at the right time is compromising the stroke or simply a poorer technique because of the timing issue.

    It actually sounds like a personal limitation rather than a solid logical rule - some people can play great backhands regardless - Taufik Hidayat could smash the hell out of the shuttle with feet on or still off the ground. Think about how the power is really generated and if having a foot on the ground or not would make a measurable difference.

     
  3. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    You presume a lot about how I came to ask my question. As for something you could have considered there - what makes me suggest that delaying putting the foot down may help with power.. I hear it from many good players, including coaches. (not all, but many). So it's not some kind of effect to cause reasoning, flawed or otherwise, based on myself doing it.

    As for your argument that taufik can do it a variety of ways regardless.. Well a lot of players can hit a good length backhand clear with their foot already on the ground(early), not just taufik, even a number of club players can. As for your taufik example, well, I know a guy that has seen a guy that hits a backhand clear end to end with just finger power, a "one in a 'million' " guy as is taufik. This doesn't prove anything. Lin Dan and not just him, can hit a very fast smash as a stick smash, that doesn't mean it's the way to produce the most power or that doing something more won't produce more power. So I don't agree with any of your reasoning to discount the suggestion that putting the foot down later can get more power.

    Perhaps there are some here of the view about putting the foot down later getting more power, that can help explain their case..
     
  4. khoai

    khoai Regular Member

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    Think about it as split-step for body turn. The delay in putting the foot down is just to help you load and then unload muscles at the right timing. If you do it too early, power is lost. This is similar in forehand clear/smash, if you back swing too early (kids and beginners, especially ladies), there's not much power for the shot.
     
  5. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    I guess maybe I see the direct line from the muscles in the quads and hamstrings, to the shoulder...

    I recall a video somewhere saying to dip the shoulder, not sure if that's right..I cam imagine some coiling/uncoiling power from that.

    In the case of a forehand, if you push down with the leg to start the movement, you get force going up through to the shoulder.

    But I don't see how this operates for the backhand, because landing with the foot and hitting, it's not pushing off from the leg. infact, stepping out or lunging out would be going down a bit and using enough force to prevent you from going down further. But not even using enough force to extend the leg So what force is transferring up from there and how? (does one even start extending the leg prior to contact, or / on contact? 'cos then there could be some push, though i imagine it's a very small movement 'cos peoples' legs are often quite bent when doing it).

    I have also heard that the heal lands first then the front of the foot and contact is made when the front of the foot lands and there's some whip effect but how .. how can a force from I hazard a guess, from heel towards end of the foot, how can that translate to a whip effect up the arm to the hand? I don't see it

    Also not sure what you mean re what you say about backswinging early on the forehand leading to less power.. I think i've found that when I backswing early, then slow down the swing, I never noticed a loss in power, infact if anything sometimes I found maybe by preparing early, I gained power because the swing is not rushed..and maybe a slow swing means more time for power to build up through the body.
     
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  6. Ouchie

    Ouchie Regular Member

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    I discounted the whole notion because the idea that putting the foot down at any particular time has a meaningful impact on the power is very questionable. It is not the first time I have heard it. In fact I have heard other versions from foot down before the stroke, same time as the hit, after the hit, to stamp your foot down, never stamp... They are all a nonsense and red herring (except not stamping - that's obviously bad), the real solution if more power is required then put more power into the racket head. Putting a foot down or not won't make a difference. I would even argue that delaying is counter productive because it forces you to be in motion after hitting the shuttle whilst in a compromised court position with your back to the net. I would advocate having a planted racket foot before the stroke in order to push into the shot is more stable and it will speed up positional recovery.

    I am agreeing with your pessimism of what you have heard. If you are indeed still being pessimistic. Are you arguing for or against what you have heard, did you believe it or not?

    The majority of the power is from arm/wrist supination. A small amount is from added body and additional shoulder movement. All the action happens between the shoulder and thumb. There are loads of scientific papers on the various strokes and movements, it might be best to search through them rather than listen to the opinions of others.
     
  7. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    It helps with timing the strike of shuttle. Better timing will lead to a better quality shot more times.

    Some amateur players who are good may put their foot down first and hit great backhand clears. Can they hit great backhand drives, drops etc. ? If so, then they are truly excellent players.
     
  8. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    I'm not sure that it's just timing.. Pro players could time it well with or without the foot land as they hit.The heel to toe as they hit is something in many shots. And I do wonder if it does bring more power..

    See here for example..

    0:37-0:41 it's not for an overhead backhand clear, but the foot coming down when it does could still get power..

    (gotta click to watch on youtube as it might not play in forum thread)

    #badminton 2019koreaOpen 수카물조 스매싱 쉐도잉 Sukamuljo Smashing Shadowing Kevin sanjaya Sukamuljo Indonesia by
    두리콕tv


    pic of the part I refer to

    [​IMG]

    Also it may be cross-sport, I spoke to a squash coach that plays county level, and he said hitting as the foot comes down gets more power

    If it is indeed the case, then there's a question mark as to how/why.

    Also, ouchie I understand your argument, that you don't see a reason it'd get more power, and see reasons why it wouldn't make a difference so therefore reject the idea. I could also make that argument. But I'm just trying to see the thinking behind those that see it making a difference.
     
    #8 ralphz, Jan 14, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  9. khoai

    khoai Regular Member

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    It's actually fairly simple. Think about vertical jump, which one is higher, jumping in place or jumping with pre-running? Running prior to jumping provides more power, it's just a matter of redirecting it correctly so that it adds up to what you need. That's why I mentioned earlier, it's like split-step.

    For some ppl, they mostly use core/trunk rotation and transfer that into the swing hence it does not feel like the core uncorking add any power but again, both can be utilized to add more power.
     
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  10. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    regarding running prior to an attempted reasonably vertical jump.. (by which I mean a jump that may end up taking you forwards, but is aimed at being vertical).. rather than a long jump. I suppose there are two factors to consider with it
    a)redirection b)muscle stimulation..

    The running beforehand will have loaded and stimulated the muscles leading to a greater vertical jump than would be without the run..

    There may be some unwanted redirection where all the acceleration forwards takes you forwards in the jump rather than vertical. So i'm not sure that redirection helps there.

    But i'll try looking at your analogy from another perspective..That takes out the varables of muscle loading and muscle stimulation.

    A) It sounds like, Imagine a car. driving down the road, and on top of the car is a piston like what pinball machines have. And it fires a ball into the air.. It sounds like you are suggesting that the faster the car goes, the higher the ball will go?

    and

    B) if you have a car, and it goes at a certain speed,and some massive springs below it launch it into the air.. Will it go higher if is moving at e.g 30mph vs if it was stationary..

    and

    C) If you run and throw a ball into the air then even if you don't use your knees to launch the ball, you will gain height the faster you are running when the ball is thrown.,

    Would you answer yes for 'a' and 'b' and 'c'?

    If so, I can see how you can theorise/argue that if you step heal to toe and hit, then it will get more force upwards like a running jump would. I will check with some physicists if they think that is correct. It's an interesting concept. Have I understood you correctly?

    I think that's more about muscles being loaded in the case of the neutral split step, and in the case of the anticipated split step, it's about both the muscles being loaded, and about momentum. But let's for simplicity take the .case of the neutral split step.. You're at 0 speed when doing that..

    It's true that in the case of heel to toe(done for some backhands or forehands), e.g. for the backhand overhead clear, your feet aren't moving when you hit it, as your foor is on the floor prior to contact, but there is a momentum n the body, gong from the heel towards the toe (which I guess by your theory would lead your arm to go up faster?)..

    But in the case of the split step, . there isn't that momentum once you land. it's just about loading the muscles.... If you did a drive then i'm not sure it'd be any more powerful if you did a spit step prior. And nobody says do a split step for power.. they say to do it to be ready to move quicker..
     
  11. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    That's exactly the difference between pros and more mortal players. A lower level player will need to train timing the strike with landing of foot. The further they move up the expertise ladder, the more variation they can perform.
     

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