How to measure if a shot is or was (after striking it back) too long, without sacrifying the rally ?

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Ballschubser, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. Ballschubser

    Ballschubser Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2019
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    122
    Location:
    Germany
    Okay, I have an issue with one player, who is able to pin me to the backline all the time. I'm sure that at the end I'm too slow and have not enough stamina, nevertheless, I'm unsure if most of his shots would be really inside.

    When I play vs other players, most if the time I 'feel' that a certain shot is too long and let it go out, but this player is like a power horse, hitting all shots with hi-power to the backline. Because all shots are played really long, I'm totaly unsure if they are in or not and therefor I try to take them all.

    So, the question is, how to measure if a shot is or was (after striking it back) too long, without sacrifying the rally ?

    I know, that pros often take a look at the lines and decide if it will be inside. But the pros are fast enough to reach the shuttle position early, I'm by far not that fast.

    So, is there an other trick or hint, like checking your foot position after hitting the shuttle, which will help me to measure the length of the opponents shot ?
    I just need a tool, a hint and not a 100% safe method.
     
  2. llrr

    llrr Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    525
    Location:
    Somewhere
    Easy, let one or two drop and see where they land? You lose 1-2pts but then you should be able to tell. What makes it harder to judge this player's shots vs other players?
     
    ucantseeme and LenaicM like this.
  3. Ouchie

    Ouchie Regular Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2018
    Messages:
    427
    Likes Received:
    226
    Location:
    UK
    Sounds very familiar, you are prepared to play the shot by getting into your normal position as soon as possible then...wait..how many steps did you take from the centre position and how big were the steps, where do you think you are, where are you really, where is the line, where is the shuttle, take a look where the shuttle will land, play a shot, don't play a shot, play an underarm shot because it is too late to play a good overhead shot. Arghhh...

    There is a trick I use to help with high serves, clears, lifts, anything that drops to the back line; look up at the roof and see if there is something obvious that you can use as a marker above the back lines that means you don't need to look around or guess. Do this during the warm up so you are prepared. If you are playing a shot to your side then see if there is something on the wall that could help.

    It helps to reinforce your perception of your position on court and perception of the shuttles trajectory. You could briefly look at lines but that could result in being forced into playing an escape shot. Looking for markers means you don't need to take your eye off the shuttle as much. I use the roof trick often as it is also good for guessing the relative width of a shot.

    For punches and drives that give you less time to react then you have to do as llrr suggests. Don't forget, if you leave the shots and they do go out your opponent should adapt.
     
  4. Budi

    Budi Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2019
    Messages:
    609
    Likes Received:
    205
    Location:
    Indonesia
    Basically you need to makes your body learn & feel your location. Based from where you start standing then as you move your mind need to know where you are without even see it. Kinda like GPS on your head. Then based on your location you can measure how high the bird coming to you & how fast to determine if it will drop in/out.

    Then if you are unsure, better to decide fast than late act resulting bad return. If it were me, if im unsure, i will take the bird.
     
  5. Ballschubser

    Ballschubser Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2019
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    122
    Location:
    Germany
    Ouchie, I really like this trick, I will test it out next time.

    This sounds so easy and logical, but it is so hard to lose intentionally 1-2 pts.

    I'm not 100% sure, but I think that he really plays powerful and fast to the backline, 90% of the shots, others don't play it like him. He is not excatly accurate or smashes a lot, but he is hitting the shuttle very hard all the time. I'm pressed hard and just think all the time: 'wow, that's far, but is it out ?'

    This works most of the time vs others players, my prediction is good enough, that I feel comfortable with it for now.

    Yeah, but because of being so unsure, I take every shuttle and pay with lot of energy. I drain really quickly in this kind of match.
     
  6. Budi

    Budi Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2019
    Messages:
    609
    Likes Received:
    205
    Location:
    Indonesia
    Well... If he is an all bruteforce type, you just need to use your tactics.

    To be able to hit hard, you need good preparation & bird position. On a bad preparation/position no matter how good the player, they will return the bird in a bad way or need to squeesh more of his energy to do so. So return the bird in a way so that he will have a bad position or late preparation.

    You said 90% of his shot is high fast clear, then he is the type of no power control & totaly barbaric type. Then play him with mix drop, clear, flat drive, from left to right & front to back. Makes him run & drain his own stamina. No need to answer his power challange & toy him.

    Test him with this. Draw him near the mid court & feed him a good bird. Normally a barbaric type would still hit hard as if he is in the back court & throw the bird out. If it works you can sometimes use this tactic to gain some free point. But dont over use it or he will realize it.
     
  7. R20190

    R20190 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2004
    Messages:
    2,432
    Likes Received:
    388
    Occupation:
    Chartered Civil Engineer
    Location:
    London, UK
    It's all really down to experience and judgment. Most advanced players/pros will know when a shuttle is going out pretty much as soon as the shuttle leaves the racquet. But when it is really close, they'll get to the line and have a look down and back up to double check. It's not something you can teach or have a fail safe system as it depends on so many factors, trajectory, how it is hit, condition of the shuttle, temperature/humidity, shuttle speed etc.

    You just have to play more, and get a feel for how the shuttle flies at that time, under those circumstances.
     
  8. khoai

    khoai Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    44
    Location:
    US
    You can always warm up or hit with him and ask for clears so you can judge the landing of his shots. But I have a feeling that he's a better player and he knows you are struggling with those clears. I do punch clears a lot to others as well, especially cross court because most ppl don't expect that from the left hand corner but I'm a lefty :D.

    The key point for more accurate judgement, as you already somewhat figured out is getting there early enough. And also, if you are moving/running fast, it will be harder to gauge where the birdie lands. So try to keep you eyes/head more stable while moving. For a particular opponent, you can also watch him playing on the sideline or the back of the other court and learn/judge the trajectories of his shots.
     
    #8 khoai, Jun 20, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  9. visor

    visor Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    16,100
    Likes Received:
    1,726
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but the best way to judge whether your opponent's clear has good length is to see where your feet is (or your opponent's feet for your own clears) when you're in position and about to hit the shuttle. Because if you leave it and don't hit it right then, that's where the shuttle will land, where your feet are, whether it's within the rear tramlines or outside.

    Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
     
    Ballschubser likes this.
  10. badmintony

    badmintony Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Messages:
    1,371
    Likes Received:
    273
    Location:
    San Andreas
    You can start off by applying the space/area calculation technique similar to what you do when you drive any vehicle, if you drive one though. When you drive a vehicle, you establish a calculation on the size of it, though not exactly accurately measured, but you make it feel like an extension of your body so that you familiarize yourself on its length and width, thus, your space/area. Similarly, you can at first try establishing this calculations to the length and width of your side of the court, but in this case by applying whatever footwork you currently have as your basis for measuring how many steps it would roughly take you based on your given position until you hit the back or side lines. If you're familiar with you footwork, for example you're in a position that will take 2 steps until you hit the back line, you can tell if the shuttlecock's direction is going beyond those 2 steps or within them. This way you can make a good judgement on your shot. It's not failproof as there are times when your calculations can be wrong especially when you're pressured in an intense rally. Even pros make a last sec calculations sometimes to check if an opponent's backline shot is in or out.
     
  11. inthisspace

    inthisspace New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2017
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Singapore
    Is the player really better than you and is getting behind the shuttle to make these shots? Are you unable to retrieve his baseline shots because he applies some form of deception, or is he just applying brute force no matter what position he is in?

    If he is the latter, then as some have suggested, let one or two birds go without taking them. Chances are, if the shot is just too difficult to take, it could be really out. This will make him more mindful of his shots too. If the shuttles are flying out of the court or borderline in, the player will not want to drive the ball so hard next time, or risk losing points. This works to your advantage.

    The other way is to anticipate such shots and be ready at the baseline for him. This gives you more time to prepare for your next shot and you can then surprise him with a cross drop. Look out for patterns or tell-tale signs in his play whenever he makes such shots. Does he make such shots whenever you feed the shuttle to his backhand or forehand? Is he always standing by at the back to make such shots? Will engaging him in more net play reduce his advantage?

    Hope this helps!
     
  12. Ballschubser

    Ballschubser Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2019
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    122
    Location:
    Germany
    The assumption is, that a player will play clears in a similar way most of the time and the shuttle will take a similar trajectory. When I leave one shuttle and see where it hits the floor in relation to my feet, I would be able to judge the distance by watching where my feets(body) are in relation to the tram lines, right ?
    I think, that I do this unconsciously sometimes, that I know that I surpass the last line and leave it. I think, that I lose orientation after 1-2 shots under high pressure and therefor I'm no longer able to judge my feet position in relation to the backcourt. I will try to recalibrate my orientation sense by taking a consciously look at the backlines and feets when receiving one of these clears.
    I just hope, that I'm fast enough to do it.
     
  13. llrr

    llrr Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,292
    Likes Received:
    525
    Location:
    Somewhere
    In that case it's not just about who's better at badminton. You also need to work on the mental side to maintain your concentration.
     
    Ballschubser likes this.
  14. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2010
    Messages:
    4,489
    Likes Received:
    1,645
    Occupation:
    ZFII
    Location:
    ZFII
    Do you regular win or lose against him? I guess the latter? I would sacrifice a few points in a set instead of continue guessing and don't knowing. The thinking will prevent you from hitting your best. IMO players who do this don't fear the attack of the opponent, the opponents don't put them under pressure or they are above their opponents or like to play this cat and mouse games and toy their opponent.

    I second that you should drop some of his shots. What can happen? They are in, so you have the security to take everything 100% without question or going by he is "not exactly accurate" he hit some of them really out. If you let them fall (beside getting the point) you will make your opponent loose confidence in his shot security. Let's say you let 8 fall and 5 are out, 3 are in you simply get totally an advantage of 2 points. Maybe he will don't play so far and it will be an easier match for you regardless how it turns out.

    In badminton games it is vital to try out. You can't play every opponent with your standard game built. You need to check him/them out. Even when it don't work.

    Imagine, you play somebody who you never played before at tournament. I observe in which situations are the opponent get advantages and in which he struggle. If not possible I tend to use in the first set the chance to check where I can exploit him. And during this checking I also risk points. If I find something, I can use the lost points get be compensated.

    Playing mostly doubles I always check: which area of the front line makes it easy for them to push in the me serving sitation, how do the return/cover swips. If smashs don't create much winners, because they are good at countering, how they react on punch clears between them or deceptive drops? How they handle slower smashs/cross smash and flatter ones? Do they rule the net, do they don't pay much attention to the net? How is it their backhand and is it dangerous? Do they cover the court well, which empty space they often leave? Can I gain an advantage to aim these spaces? Play they a standard return from one spot? IMO you should let them fall in the first set.

    Maybe one hint: watch him play against somebody he loose, but not far away from your level. Maybe you learn how you can get him or if they get points by leaving them fall?
     
    #14 ucantseeme, Jun 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
    Ballschubser, LenaicM and visor like this.
  15. Rob3rt

    Rob3rt Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
    Messages:
    7,167
    Likes Received:
    1,378
    Location:
    Germany
    Viktor Axelsen should watch this thread.
     
  16. badmintony

    badmintony Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Messages:
    1,371
    Likes Received:
    273
    Location:
    San Andreas
    Someone once told me and for some reasons i always follow this, that if you're having doubts at a moment whether a shot will be in or out, just hit the birdie. Better to return a birdie than lose a point.

    Sent from my JSN-L22 using Tapatalk
     
  17. visor

    visor Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    16,100
    Likes Received:
    1,726
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    Lol... And also FHF.

    Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
     
  18. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    Messages:
    1,197
    Likes Received:
    753
    Location:
    Manchester
    I followed this for the past few years.

    I am now known as the player with worst line judgement in the club :D

    I started playing half court singles in the past couple months, and genuinely was shocked at how I could play a 30+ shot rally, with someone tellling me every single clear/lift my opponent hit that rally was at least 1 ft out of the back of the court.

    It is also the trouble with gauging the shuttle position by how "easy" your footwork is - as you improve, you're able to reach further and further, but better opponents can exploit this by purposefully hitting shuttles longer/wider than they normally would.

    I think you should actually leave them and see where they go in training/friendly/non-competition matches, and take them if in doubt for competition matches...or more serious friendlies if you don't compete!
     
    Cheung and badmintony like this.
  19. Ouchie

    Ouchie Regular Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2018
    Messages:
    427
    Likes Received:
    226
    Location:
    UK
    If in doubt...
    [​IMG]
     
    Rob3rt and ucantseeme like this.
  20. badmintony

    badmintony Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Messages:
    1,371
    Likes Received:
    273
    Location:
    San Andreas
    Better to be someone with bad line judgement than sorry

    I rarely leave them though even in friendly matches. I always try to play every game as if its a tournament match to regularly put me in a competitive mode. But if the opponents are lower level ones, i sometimes do that or practice some fancy shots

    Sent from my JSN-L22 using Tapatalk
     

Share This Page