HSBC-BWF WORLD Tour Finals 2020 : Group Stage-Final (27-31 January 2021)

Discussion in '2021 Tournaments' started by CLELY, Jan 25, 2021.

  1. Martynas

    Martynas Regular Member

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    yes Higashino has lots of power form the back, but still her smashes are nowhere near as exciting as Christie Gilmour (watching her I always get the biggest bag of popcorn :) ) and every where else Higashino is really mediocre, which is actually very bad in terms of MIX discipline
     
  2. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    also discouraged at the youth level.
    at the professional level that's here to stay.
     
  3. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    kinda like the current crowds... :cool:
     
  4. pp35

    pp35 Regular Member

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    Lee Yang? He doesn't scream as often as Marin, granted. But the fact that people only complain about female players like Marin, Kim/Kong and Mia Blichfeldt, and NOT AT ALL about male players like Lee Yang, makes me wonder if sexism is involved.

    Maria Sharapova roars full-throat not after every point, but at every shot she hits. If an aristocratic, etiquette-obsessed sport like tennis can live with Sharapova, badminton can live with Marin, I think.
     
    #404 pp35, Feb 2, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2021
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  5. SnowWhite

    SnowWhite Regular Member

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    I think there is an important distinction between a scream and a shout. Plenty of men shout. Plenty of women shout. But men do not scream. It takes some throaty goodness to turn a shout into a scream, and that goodness generally doesn't feel pleasant for the throat.

    Screams happen when you are getting murdered, or acting in a horror movie that you're getting murdered. Or, apparently, when you're a female badminton player and a regular shout simply doesn't express your true feelings.
     
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  6. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    bwahahahahaha!
     
  7. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    while we're on the topic of screaming/shrieking/shouting... you know what i think would be hilarious? screaming when you see a successful hawk-eye challenge. :D
     
    #407 samkool, Feb 2, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021
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  8. Martynas

    Martynas Regular Member

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    I wonder how Marin did not think off to do that :D
     
  9. hyun007

    hyun007 Regular Member

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    My dislike for Marin is not her shouting but her delaying of serve and recieving which sometime can be over 10seconds! That is more annoying than her shouting. Worse is when the umpire is too passive and did not give her a yellow card.

    TTY did make a statement during that match by serving early.
     
  10. vozer here

    vozer here Regular Member

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    never seen any match in tennis and volleyball (4x25+1x15) like that. Its possible but it would be very rare
     
  11. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    You're arguing that this system would somehow address the worst case scenario in the current system, where 1 player can throw a game, so obviously we have to compare the new worst case. That you didn't ever observe this worst case anecdotally doesn't matter, until this match between Antonsen and Axelsen I hadn't ever seen someone tank almost an entire game in the current system either.
     
  12. vozer here

    vozer here Regular Member

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    throw a game is lin's tactics, a lot during 2015-2016. Yeah i havent complained 3x21 before in this forum, but it's not mainly because of that match. I read that bwf want 5x11 somewhere and just have a mood to talk about it
    Any systems has it good and bad side. Maybe bwf should try something new

    and talk about change, i prefer super series system than world tour
     
    #412 vozer here, Feb 8, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
  13. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Well, I told you already, the 5x11 system is crap imop. I don't like it. There is much less suspense than in 3x21 from my experience playing in both systems for years, and while you proclaimed it would create fewer thrown games, there is literally no reason to assume that it would. As I showed earlier, there is actually reason to believe the exact opposite, mathematically.

    Also, why should the bwf go and change the scoring system just to "try something new"? It risks confusing the new or casual audience as well as alienating the existing player base, so there really should be a significant upside to the change to offset that. I really don't see one here.
     
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  14. vozer here

    vozer here Regular Member

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    Its fine with those other 2 sports. It's not happening with badminton so we dont have statistics, but my guess is the total percent of throwing match will be decreasing, even if there's 1 or 2 40% throwing match

    why? ask them. Bwf already suggested 5x11.
     
  15. Bardie

    Bardie Regular Member

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    I agree with you. I have never seen a game that was so obviously "intentionally" given. Certainly this is and has been used more often by players. You only have to play a return half a meter too short and your opponent makes the point very easily without it being too noticeable. Personally, I've played all of the counting systems. At the beginning of the century, the best of 3 to seven points was played (with a change of the right to serve in order to gain points). The result was boring games that often ended 7-2, 1-7, 7-0 ,3-7, 6-8 because both players "gave away" a set or two when they were behind. That would probably also happen with a switch to 5x11. Presumably more sentences would be "given away". So with 3x21 it is maybe sometimes one game that is "given away". We should and must live with that.
     
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  16. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    a few things to think about:
    • giving away one 5x11 game will only take half the time, and it's kind of like only throwing one-half of a 21 point game.
    • with rally scoring it's higher risk to give away one 11 point game because you have to get your act together pretty quickly to win the next 11 point game because you only have half the opportunities to win it as opposed to a 21 point game.
    • how often would a player throw an 11 point game because you're never really that far behind? i can see it if you're down 8 points or more, but a 6-7 point deficit isn't that much.
    • it's extremely high risk if you throw a game that gives your opponent their 2nd out of 3 needed. i would expect a player to fight to the end of that game instead.
     
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  17. Hassefar60

    Hassefar60 Regular Member

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    I would like to counter-argue:
    • It is lower risk to give away one 11 point game (with 5x11) because you can "afford" to lose two of them. In a 3x21 you can only afford to lose one, so if one is given away, you have to win "the rest".
    • When you play to 11 points with rally scoring, being down 6 points is a lot. Being down 2-8 is equivalent to being down 12-18 with the current system. It is not uncatchable, but I wouldn't say it "isn't that much"..
    • In the current system, if you opponent won the first game, there is an extremely high risk (100%) that if you throw the second game, it gives your opponent his/her second game. This ties to the first point.
    I am just trying to illustrate that it is not so black and white. I am not sure which side I am leaning to myself. We are really speculating about how it will feel psychologically. Especially the perceived risk of throwing a game is hard to predict.
     
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  18. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    You're arguing with the worst case scenario (one player not even attempting to win a game for the full length of it) against your guess of what a different system would be like. That's just unacceptable, you don't make big changes based on guesses or gut feelings. Would you trust someone to modify your airplane's wings because they said "I guess it'll work"? No, you'll want some form of proof. Same applies here. Competitive system should always be based on the worst possible outcome they can produce, since that can completely ruin someone's viewing experience or even entire tournaments (e.g. London 2012). The worst case scenario in a 5 game format is worse than that in a 3 game format. There is no (mathematical) reason to assume that the percentage of 'thrown' or 'given up' games would decrease, in fact it's the opposite.

    The fact that the BWF suggested it means little since the organisation has a long history of incompetence and borderline negligence towards the sport.
    Afaik they were/are thinking of this change because they're hoping for more consistent, plannable match durations to avoid tournaments running late. I don't know if they have actual statistics to back up that hope.

    I've seen only one complete game that was given up on in the current system, and usually it's happening somewhere in the second half of the second game when one player/pair establishes a sizeable lead. The size of a lead that's deemed "hard to catch up to" would decrease with shorter games as well, so the dynamics don't really change all that much in that regard.
    A drawback of having games is generally that all games count the same. Winning 11-9, 11-9, 0-11, 11-9 is possible despite having won fewer points than your opponent. Increasing the number of games will increase both the potential for "throwing" games as their individual importance decreases as well as increase the influence of luck as there are potentially more close situations near the end of a game and individual points in one game get more important.

    Anecdotally, I've seen a higher percentage of 5x11 games being let go than 3x21 ones. If you're 2-0 ahead you usually don't fight that hard if you're 3-8 down in the 4th - your opponent can't win, and if you gas yourself trying to catch up and still lose it you risk losing the next games as well. What you choose depends strongly on your mentality, but even in the less physical sport of table tennis I've experienced more of this than in the old (our current) scoring system.
    Personally, I'd see fighting for a 2-8 4th game as a higher risk than taking it a bit easy and giving the 5th game my all. A 5-6 point lead really feels huge in 11 point games!

    I'm not making assertions on the average outcomes and behaviour based on my own experience, btw.
    I still maintain that the system should be chosen based on the worst case scenario it can produce and I still think that the 5x11 scenario is worse than the 3x21 one.
     
    #418 j4ckie, Feb 9, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
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  19. vozer here

    vozer here Regular Member

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    does anyone know the money prize of these 3 tournaments in thailand come from? indonesia and china or thailand?
     

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