I feel I have a lot to work on, but where should I start first?

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by precrime3, Jan 31, 2020.

  1. precrime3

    precrime3 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2011
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    27
    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    Alabama
    Wait really? which shots is it panhandle and which is it not? I'm assuming for overheard and around the head smash, clear, and drop panhandle is NOT the right grip?
     
  2. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    21,081
    Likes Received:
    2,864
    Occupation:
    wannabe badminton phototaker
    Location:
    Outside the box
    Did you look up videos of the two players to compare?
     
  3. precrime3

    precrime3 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2011
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    27
    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    Alabama
    Yeah I just watched a match between the two actually from 2018. It's kind of hard to put into words what I think I saw but it seemed that from both the proper grip is preferred, and I really saw panhandle for maybe drives, forehand netkills, anywhere where ROM is restricted. IF they had time and ROM, the "proper" forehand grip and stroke is used.

    Is this right?
     
  4. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    659
    Likes Received:
    94
    Location:
    london
    Given that a shoulder is stationary, an object near your neck, and it doesn't move around in space like your arm, you have to know a little bit about anatomy to know whether you are using your shoulder.

    And technically it's not that you should or shouldn't use your shoulder. Where are you getting the idea that you should or shouldn't use your shoulder?

    If your upper arm rotates, that uses the shoulder..And you should..

    And if your elbow were to come forward and up, that'd use your shoulder.

    If your arm was to come down like a karate chop then that'd also use the shoulder, but not in the manner of a forehand overhead badminton swing. (Sometimes some people call that using the shoulder, but they don't realise that the shoulder does other things too in a forehand overhead swing, and so they'd want to use it for certain things even in a forehand overhead shot / they're being very inaccurate) But I didn't notice anybody say that here, did they?
     
  5. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    659
    Likes Received:
    94
    Location:
    london
    It's more to do with if you are sideways on or not. And if the shuttle is very much in front of you or not.

    A lot of big swings have abbreviated forms that can be done with the same grip.

    forehand net kills would be panhandle / panhandle is very effective for forehand net kills.

    what grip to use for drives is a little subject in itself.
     
    #65 ralphz, Feb 18, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
  6. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    659
    Likes Received:
    94
    Location:
    london
    Well, so you are talking about the grip he has after he has done the shot and moved to a different position on the court.. though logically it is possible for somebody to change their grip between the shot and moving to the centre..

    But interestingly, here I had a look at his racket position after the shot.

    If a person has his palm is facing to the camera, and he has his arm down like a stick at a 90 degree angle from the floor, and he has panhandle then his racket face would be parallel with the net.

    He has his arm slightly forward. and his racket face has a tilt. And if he has panhandle and his palm is facing the net, then even with hs arm forward as it is, it wouldn't tilt as it is.

    Suppose a person had forehand grip and their arm was straight down, then there are two typical natural positions their arm may be in if danglng down.. one could be little finger to the camera. palms inwards toward the body. And another natural position could be arm slightly pronated causing the racket to tilt. Maybe he has that there in the screenshot below?

    Look at this picture where he moves after having done his forehand overhead shot.

    [​IMG]


    But it's interesting to me, if looking at where his racket points, to compare his racket position with fu heifeng. I see some similarity ;-)

    I notice a difference in where the racket points in the follow through, but I think perhaps it's good that precrime3 didn't twist his body a lot with the racket end up pointing behind him.. as I rarely hear that as advisable

    [​IMG]

    can you give a screenshot of where you mean 'cos I don't see him doing that (at least not in the swing I looked at and showed). His racket did tip a little bit just before he got his racket to this position, maybe 'cos of a wrist flexion that shouldn't be there and especially not then.. but the racket didn't point down at any point that I saw in the swing here, and once it got to this point, prepared I don't see it pointing down until after the shuttle was hit. Can you show a screenshot of what you mean?


    [​IMG]
     
    #66 ralphz, Feb 18, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
  7. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    21,081
    Likes Received:
    2,864
    Occupation:
    wannabe badminton phototaker
    Location:
    Outside the box
    When they receive high shots, do you notice they turn their body with the right shoulder and right arm behind the head way beforehand? We call this ‘preparing early’. Try to copy that. If you were the opponent, your view of their hand would be obscured. When you are facing the net preparing for an overhead high shuttle, we can plainly see your right arm and hand and the racquet face.

    Then you pull the hand backwards at the beginning of the stroke but the racquet head has some inertia and the racquet face initially turns outwards and downwards.

    So, copy those players preparation with the correct grip. If you can get used to that, you have a good basis to move on to the next stage.

    As @Mason has pointed out in his posts, a person can only correct one thing at a time and it takes time. Some learn faster than others but it’s still one step at a time.
     
    precrime3 likes this.
  8. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    21,081
    Likes Received:
    2,864
    Occupation:
    wannabe badminton phototaker
    Location:
    Outside the box
    I put this post up before. Keep trying and focussed on this and the correcting the panhandle. Don’t get distracted by side discussions.

     
    Mason likes this.
  9. precrime3

    precrime3 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2011
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    27
    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    Alabama
    Noted. The next step for me will be to just practice clears for 10 minutes before playing and prepare early. Thanks again Cheung.
     
  10. precrime3

    precrime3 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2011
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    27
    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    Alabama
    2/18/20 Update
    Some light four corner drills and the standard warming up and recovery. Weekdays are (Tuesday, Wed, Fri) are more of a social playing and the other days are off days so that's when me and my partner train.

    Training: As stated, just four corners and some danish singles.
    Warmup/Recovery - Same as 2/15

    Additional Notes
    Gripping conversation (double meaning/pun intended) has been going on about my grip, more accurately stroke. There's a lot of moving parts (wow another double meaning/pun) so it's easy to get bogged down in the details. It seems that the part now is getting to the shot early so I have time to bring the elbow up and hand and shoulder behind (imagine my opponent, and making sure they can't see my hand).

    This will inadvertently also train footwork, cause I have to get to the shots even faster. No worries :)

    Also kind soul @ralphz has been PM'ing with me regarding my grip, and has also given a lot of good feedback. The first video is a in-depth grip review, so in court where there's a lot of space and you can see my total body from all four sides - also got friend to feed some birdies so you can see what I'm doing in real-time from a different POV. Hope that helps.

    Another thing apparently is my wrong (but well-intentioned) focus on forearm pronation. I'm also misusing the term wrist flexion. Correct me if I'm wrong @ralphz, but it seems that I should just be focusing on timing and stroke, and the forearm and wrist can come later (and should come naturally?).

    Secondary videos are four corner drill 1,2,3 and double matches. Apologies for the four corner drills being separate videos, I'm not sure why they split like that.

    PS - I write these right before I go to bed so one of the things I look forward to is waking up the next day and seeing what you guys have to say. You guys mean more than I can say.

    Video Links





    https://youtu.be/Fda_ur_UltA
    https://youtu.be/Ak3pIdhMdXk
     
  11. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    659
    Likes Received:
    94
    Location:
    london
    I did suggest posting that video you sent me to the thread, so i'd comment re that video here in thread rather than just PM. But you didn't so my comments to you re that video were just in PM.

    And what I wrote was "Generally, your wrist shouldn't bend past neutral (unless perhaps you are doing a particular thing I think called snapping the wrist, but even then that'd be later.. and lots of people don't do that.. and you shouldn't concern yourself with that at this stage.. and many great players might not do it at all at any time in their swing). ."

    You are very intuitive(impressively so), but not so technical. Here is a big simplification "Don't do wrist flexion in your swing. "

    Forearm pronation is (technically) NOT a movement of the wrist. So if you don't use the wrist, and you use forearm pronation then good. The wrist should turn only since it is connected to the arm.

    (Technically and no need for you to think about this. There is upper arm rotation too but you're doing that anyway)

    Also, as I mentioned, I think it'd help A LOT if you always got the racket head in the picture for all your swings.

    Many times, both in the video you sent me and in the on court video, your racket head was out of view.

    One possible solution is to put the camera Portrait. There may be other solutions you run into please share those findings here. Another solution you may want to try is a tripod maybe that will help if you want not just the whole racket but feet too.

    Really for analysing a swing you should get the whole racket in there for all your swings, it's important!! Like you say you have 60FPS but even if you had 600FPS, if you can't see your whole racket head then your extra FPS is not so beneficial!

    It is good to focus on gettting forearm pronation right. By which people often also mean a proper technically correct swing including forearm pronation

    But what is important is to remember that there is also the goal of clears going to the back of the court and the shuttle going where you want it to go. So try to keep a big picture in mind if you can, while understanding that that doesn't mean not to focus on the smaller picture.
     
    #71 ralphz, Feb 18, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
  12. precrime3

    precrime3 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2011
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    27
    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    Alabama
    Video he's talking about is this one - I would refer to the one I posted yesterday in the 2/18 Update as it's much more detailed IMO.

     
  13. Mason

    Mason Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2018
    Messages:
    559
    Likes Received:
    134
    Location:
    Buffalo NY
    Keep working on your footwork so that you can get behind the shuttle properly and then also work on what Cheung wrote
     
    precrime3 likes this.
  14. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    659
    Likes Received:
    94
    Location:
    london
    The context of me mentioning this here in this thread "Generally, your wrist shouldn't bend past neutral ,,,,,,.", and this ".............Here is a big simplification "Don't do wrist flexion in your swing. ........". was because in this thread you mentioned "wrist flexion".

    And there was something going wrong with your swing @ 1min 0sec into the 1min 34sec video you showed me.in your racket position being very wrong, though others would see that too, and you saw and understood that well once I pointed it out to you .

    Also in that video, aside from the error mentioned in the above paragraph, Look at 0:50-0:52 of your 2min 15sec video you just showed, and you are pulling your elbow down before you made contact with the shuttle!!! That's not right!

    And in a game, in the swing I looked at and mentioned in this thread, you are much better than that!

    Here, look see you reaching up (besides the scissor kick!). And not only did you reach up, but very good for a beginner, you knew you weren't quite back that far and you jumped back as you struck the shuttle and you saw the shuttle flew well so you got a good contact. It takes some talent to do that with no in person coach. Also your racket didn't finish off on the same side of your body, which is good.

    [​IMG]
     
    #74 ralphz, Feb 19, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
  15. precrime3

    precrime3 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2011
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    27
    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    Alabama
    That's what it seems like. My friend was right, practicing just the fundamental can get you a long way - I think of Lee Hyun Il lol.

    Wait let me get this right - my swing is better in game then in drills? Interesting - maybe I need to do more live drills then.
     
  16. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    659
    Likes Received:
    94
    Location:
    london
    I didn't say that.. You're over-simplifying what I said.

    I just looked at one swing in slow motion and saw some ways in which it was better than what you practised. And I showed you where.. so you don't have to take my word for it. I showed you your racket crossed your body and didn't end up the same side. (good that it didn't end up on the same side). I also showed you a screenshot of a pro demonstrating it and his racket crossed his body when he did a follow through.. And I showed you where you made contact was good you reached up. You don't even need to trust me on those points. I never do ask anybody to trust me. I suggest you accept things on the merit of the case. I showed you the evidence for you to see. I showed you screenshots of them. If you don't understand then you can ask.

    So this is one reason why I said you're very intuitive.. so you may sometimes get some things right without realising it.

    I wasn't making a general statement about all your swings. Or even all details re that swing. I choose my words very carefully. (unless i'm tired ;-) )
     
  17. precrime3

    precrime3 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2011
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    27
    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    Alabama
    2/19/20 Update
    Today was not much - some light footwork drills to start my game (after warmup and stretch). Played a singles game I didn't record because I didn't think it was worth it - in hindsight should've recorded everything.

    As for training, we did smashes, drives, and a 2v1. You can see below.

    Training: 2 v1, Smashes, Drives
    Warmup: Same as last.

    Additional Info
    My smashes felt weak today. IDK if it's dead birds (which could be plausible), but I'm sure it was a combination of me being tired and poor technique. I was upset with myself today with the smashes because smashes is the weakest tool in my arsenal. Maybe slightly better then my backhand. Regardless, having a threatening straight smash and cross smash (in terms of speed, my accuracy is actually quite good) would allow me to be a better single and doubles. I'm sure part of the reason I'm doing bad is grip and stroke, but any suggestions for drills?

    Video Links

     
    Mason likes this.
  18. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    21,081
    Likes Received:
    2,864
    Occupation:
    wannabe badminton phototaker
    Location:
    Outside the box
    Weak is OK. It's better to go for a good technique first.

    Not too bad looking at the video of your smashes.

    However, your preparation is sometimes good but also very inconsistent in position. When you first raise the racquet, it's to the right of your body.

    Raise the racquet behind your body straight away as you turn your body and shoulders and hold it there waiting for the shuttle.
     
    Mason likes this.
  19. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    659
    Likes Received:
    94
    Location:
    london
    there's a lot going on there, things that maybe don't look quite right, but remember that as I said, i'm showing you my argument (which I think is good), and the evidence and letting you be the judge.of whether you agree with me that i'm right.

    one thing that struck me the most while watching that,

    remember I mentioned that the wrist should not bend past neutral..

    but you are here , caught you , blatant wrist bending here ;-)

    there's the screenshot with timeframe there.

    do understand exactly what I mean and see it and agree? (if not, why?) ;-)

    Also the wrist, bending it, is a very weak way of hitting..

    [​IMG]

    There is a video on youtube of somebody going really extreme with forearm pronation and not doing the rest of the swing so great, but maybe it will help you see what you are missing a bit. I'll have to find it, but as long as you'd understand you'd be looking at that just for an example of what forearm pronation is and what you're not doing.. there's also thejyn video that is popular on the forum as a demonstration of correct technique.
     
    #79 ralphz, Feb 20, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2020
  20. Karlos

    Karlos Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2018
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Czech Republic
    I recently watched a series of videos from "Coach Won" and I found them very informative and helpful. He especially focuses on the wrist/forearm problem. In the video, @ 1:24 he shows the incorrect "wrist stroke" which many players do. It is the same as what @ralphz is talking about.

    Maybe you can find this video helpful too @precrime3

     
    Satoshi and Cheung like this.

Share This Page