IBF still thinks Lee HI the top player while Chen Hong not

Discussion in 'German Open / All England / Swiss Open 2007' started by 2cents, Feb 24, 2007.

  1. sabathiel

    sabathiel Regular Member

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    We must be cautious when we compare the players of old with current players in terms of technique and style. More recent players has benefited from learning from past players in terms of technique, playing style, training program, etc and thus would be superior on court. Don't forget that in termsof resources and equipment the players of more recent years also have benefited more than the players from the past and hence this would affect the way they play. However on the issue of being legendary this must not be a term that we label on a player too easily. Sure badminton is more competitive these days but do the older players knew they were competing in sport that wasn't so competitive compared to what will happen in the future?

    Dominant players like Rudy Hartono is like Einstein or Thomas Edison they don't come very often and are born more than they are trained and came at the right time to leave their mark on badminton history just like the Beatles in pop music. Would Einstein's or Edison's knowledge compare to today's scientist? No! This is because the current scientists have benefited substantially from the greats of the past. Why haven't there been a scientist that dominated science today? This is because the major groundbreaking works have already been done in the past and there are far more scientists today than there were in the past so the current environment is more competitive and the achievements, discoveries and inventions today are shared amongst a large number of scientists.

    Would someone like George Washington come often in history? How would Washington handle the current global political climate? The thing is that great people are born at the right time and excell as well totally dominate their area of expertise during their time with very little support. One must measure greatness not lightly and cautiously. Are there any current players who have been called "the maestro" or seen as a phenomenon in badminton like the great Rudy Hartono during his time? No! This has nothing to do with how less competitive badminton was back then but rather maestros don't come very often and are born at the right time to leave their mark in history. In terms of groundbreaking Rudy Hartono, although he wasn't credited with promoting speed and power badminton (this was credited to Liem Swie King) he opened the door to speed and power badminton with his style of play and training program. Rudy took badminton to another level than his peers or predecessors did. It is fair to say that he revolutionise (Liem Swie King simply completed the process) the game something noone has done after him. He won his first All England title in his teens and I think he still is the youngest winner although Taufik is the youngest finalist at 17.

    On the issue of being dominant in our time Taufik has won the Indonesian Open 6 times. This indicates dominance although this achievement is marred by the fact that Indonesian Open is not as prestigious as All England and Taufik is playing in his own country. Ardy Wiranata also won Indonesian Open 6 times but he has retired. Taufik at a relatively young age could win maybe another 3-4 Indonesian Open and prove his dominance at home.
     
  2. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    ^^Hehe, see, what i've told you guys..^^..

    :) ...hehe, oops, forgot to tell phaarix;) ...anyways, if you or anyone else want to proceed & continue discussing this with sabathiel, just take it easy and prepare to discuss and see some lengthy replies/posts, which has a very good chance in going off-topic..:p;)
     
  3. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    well said, sabathiel.

    I did not watch much old videos. You said there was few competitions (few competitors) in Rudy's time. Did you mean that all the China players blocked at home due to international sanction? Tang XH and Hou JC were good at speed and power, right? Some one said they were at least at the same level as Rudy, is that right?
     
  4. DinkAlot

    DinkAlot dcbadminton
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    A few comments:

    +All the pros mentioned here are awesome. Sometimes comparing them is like splitting hairs.

    +Go Chen Hong! He's my favorite to watch, so exciting, never boring.

    +Watch what you guys say to Raphy (Raphael Sachetat), he's a very good player. I bet Raphy could beat anyone here in a game of singles. :p

    ;) :D :D :D
     
  5. Joyous

    Joyous Regular Member

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    I know I am a bit off-topic but I think a few great players by-passed by IBF - just look at the Player of the Year Award & draw your own conclusion. As for this article, if the writer is Raphael S., I must say if you have followed his previous articles, you will come to a conclusion who he favors. A few friends of mine have already highlighted that to me.

    It's hard to remain impartial esp. when you are a die-hard fan but when you are with the media, you just have to. That's why I like to hear commentaries by Gillian Clark. She works towards being fair in her judgement and gives credit generously when the player deserves it.
     
  6. phaarix

    phaarix Regular Member

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    Sorry :), like I said I don't know very much at all about the past players. So a lot of what I was getting at was guesswork. I'm definitely not saying it's fact! I've also never seen Rudy Hartono play so I guess I'll be looking forward to that when I get the chance.

    I'm just saying it's very hard to compare current players "legendary" status to the older players. Like I said it is amazing to have accomplished 8 All England titles. That is very very much worth legendary status. Disregarding the difference between these older players and the current players in terms of skill (players will always get better with each generation, world records in many sports are getting broken constantly for example). I just don't believe (as I said) that it is quite as achievable these days to be that dominant. As much as we improve over time there is always going to be a limit to how good people can get. And as we draw closer to that it allows less room for such dominance.

    Anyway I'm definitely not discrediting the older players in terms of skill and technique etc. It would have been just as hard back then, as it is now, to become a top player :).
     
  7. Glacyus

    Glacyus Regular Member

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    You never know - there's a TON of interest in tennis, and look what Federer is doing to that sport.
     
  8. sabathiel

    sabathiel Regular Member

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    Glacyus you took the words out of my mouth. Look at what Federer is doing to tennis and you couldn't say that in an era where tennis is much more powerful and faster as well as more competitive (more players playing from relatively new countries, eg Russia, Chile, France, Switzerland, Czech Republic, Germany etc) one cannot dominate the sport. Federer is truly dominant in tennis and is breaking records in the sport. Compare tennis today with the game in Rod Laver's day and you would see the game has come a long way since. Not only is Federer a tennis master but he came from a relatively obscure tennis country, Switzerland. I am sure if another badminton maestro is born we could witness another Rudy Hartono in badminton.
     
  9. sabathiel

    sabathiel Regular Member

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    You should watch the old videos but I doubt you would be able to find videos of Rudy Hartono in his peak. I know that you can find a Rudy Hartono vs Luan Jin match (Thomas Cup 1982 Final) online from badmintonDVD.com but Rudy lost that match in 3 sets because he was passed his prime at 33. Rudy was pressured at the time to come out from retirement by PBSI to play 3rd singles. If you can find the Final of the 1980 World Championship between Rudy Hartono vs Liem Swie King that would be great because Rudy won the title by humbling the much younger Swie King 15-9;15-9 when he came out of retirement at 31.

    During Rudy's time there were far less tournaments and All England in the absence of the Olympics (badminton started in 1992) and the World Championships (started in 1977) was the de facto World title.

    The older forum participants like Taneepak would remember how Rudy truly graced the badminton court like a true maestro with his skills. Hou JC and Tang XH was already old (although still great) when Rudy emerged in his prime. No doubt in their prime Tang XH and Hou JC were at least at the same level of Rudy. These players opened the door for speed and power badminton when Liem Swie King came and popularised badminton with his famous King jump smash.

    Not only Rudy was great at badminton but he has great sportsmanship and his behaviour on and off court is impeccable unlike the spoilt brat Taufik. Rudy always gives at least 1 point to his lesser skilled opponent as a matter of courtesy because he knew how bad one would feel to get nothing in a match.
     
  10. phaarix

    phaarix Regular Member

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    Well it remains to be seen I guess. Tennis isn't the same sport as badminton though (maybe Tennis still has a long way to go :)). I'll believe it when I see it. Perhaps if badminton becomes more globally popular we will see more variety in styles of play? And then perhaps we may see some true dominance again.
     
    #30 phaarix, Feb 26, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2007
  11. indra

    indra Regular Member

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    Rudy is an excellent player, without doubt! But Taufik plays better than Rudy:D
     
  12. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    ^^Hmmm...^^...

    ..guys, i know it's getting fun talking abt the 2 "INAn legends", but let's get back to the topic at hand...;) :cool:
     
    #32 ctjcad, Feb 26, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2007
  13. sabathiel

    sabathiel Regular Member

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    :eek: The leading top scientists today would be more knowledgeable than Albert Einstein but who left a greater scientific legacy and who left a greater mark in history? Where would Taufik be in terms of playing skills if he had no benefit from learning from players of the past including Rudy Hartono? By the way these are rhetorical questions as the answers are obvious.
     
  14. indra

    indra Regular Member

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    The earlier is NOT always the better.
     
  15. DinkAlot

    DinkAlot dcbadminton
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    No one ever said that.
     
  16. sabathiel

    sabathiel Regular Member

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    Ditto!

    The one with a greater impact in history is greater.
     
  17. phaarix

    phaarix Regular Member

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    Yeah that was part of what I was trying to get at. Each generation learns from the last and gradually improves. But lets say Einstein was born again now? Do you think he would make such a mark in the current age? And if some of todays top scientists had been born in his age would they have had the same impact? It's certainly possible.

    Rudy Hartono must have been great. But I'm still not convinced that it is fair to compare the current generation to that of 20-30 years or so ago. So much has changed since then and I just don't believe it's right to make a such a comparison.
     
    #37 phaarix, Feb 27, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2007
  18. sabathiel

    sabathiel Regular Member

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    I don't know about you but I am religious and believes that those who left a mark in history such as Einstein were chosen by God to be the greats of history. One of the fortunes of people like Einstein is that they were born at the right time with the right conditions to leave a great impact and mark on history. In other words it is their destiny to be historically significant. I don't think anyone can be historically significant even if the top scientists today were born in Einstein's day. It might be possible but not probable.
     
  19. phaarix

    phaarix Regular Member

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    Ah well I guess it's not that important. I mean everyone is going to have their own opinions on who is/was a legend :) (and for the record of course I believe Einstein was a big part of history, perhaps he wasn't the best example!).
     
  20. TKG2609

    TKG2609 Regular Member

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    I think the current great players are Lin Dan, Peter Gade, n Taufik Hidayat .... Lee Chong Wei, Chen Hong, Lee Hyun Ill are "only" good players .... just my opinion
     

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