Is pre-weaved still ok nowadays?

Discussion in 'Badminton Stringing Techniques & Tools' started by deepinthemusic, May 27, 2020.

  1. deepinthemusic

    deepinthemusic Regular Member

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    I still use 2 knots pre weaved, is it still acceptable? I never go more than 27lbs (none of my customers use above 27lbs), so far i never broke a racket when stringing (out of 250~300 string job), i dont have to worry about shared holes nightmares, dont have to poke or stab or do anything with shared holes since its pre weaved, i still have the nice crisp ping sound from my string, end result is the same with someone using 4 knots and plays the same (samples using same racket, same string, and same tension, but different stringer and different technique)

    Should i learn not to pre weaved and string 4 knots?
     
  2. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    Please describe how you do your mains: Do you do them side-to-side now?

    If the answer is yes, then that's a major no-no that is endagering the racket - no matter if you pre-weave or not. If you're doing the mains from the center outwards and don't do any other major no-no, then pre-weaving alone shouldn't be that crucial. It's surely not my cup of tea though.... just thinking about weaving the crosses in untensioned mains gives me ballache...
    And besides, dealing with shared holes is nothing but a matter of routine and using the right techniques.
     
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  3. thyrif

    thyrif Regular Member

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    I would be worried about twists in the string when tensioning with all the strings pre-weaved, these may damage the string or hinder performance? Also weaving crosses would be much slower with untensioned mains?

    Also, please do not poke/stab at the shared grommets, just use a string mover and watch kwuns video about shared holes.
     
  4. deepinthemusic

    deepinthemusic Regular Member

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    Hi mate, first of all, thank you for your time explaining all this to me. Im still new at being a stringer (18 months) but have some unique advantage, i live in a small town with only another stringer and one other stringing machine, so out of all rackets here, 50% give or take come to me. My first 50 to 100 were pretty inconsistent, i only do low tension 21 to 24lbs because i fear i will break the racket. After 100 string jobs, its getting natural for me (at least i think) and i get pretty consistent with the end result, but still i never go more than 27lbs. Thats a little background story so you can understand where im at with this.

    So about your question, yes i do them side to side, to be exact, there are 22 mains, 11
    on each side, i started from mains 9, i left 10 and 11 to do later after crosses near finish, my concern is if i do from the edge (mains 11) i fear i will break the racket, so i start from 9 left one by one to 9 right, and then do crosses, so far my customers pretty happy with the result because they keep coming back with no complain and i never broke a racket..

    And i get no twists (or at least minimal) when stringing pre weaved

    Also i tried using 4 knots, but besides the shared holes problems (yes i use kwun string mover technique, not poking or stabbing lol) i found another problem, in some grommets, theres an overlap (2 side by side grommets, with 2 strings on top of them), and no matter how, you cant avoid this stringing 4 knots, but with 2 knots this can be avoided, so im thinking 2 knots easier for the grommet.. And i swear to god, i did my research, i string one racket (88d ultimax 25lbs 4 knots not using pre weaved) and one i string myself pre weaved with same string and same tension, i dont see any difference in performance..

    So if i get the desired result, do i need to change?

    Thank you in advance for explaining this, deeply appreciated
     
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  5. thyrif

    thyrif Regular Member

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    What do you mean side to side? You must tension the mains from the center strings first, then slowly (2-4 left, 2-4 right) mov e your way to the side, like in this video.


    Here you can also see him use scraps of string to get around the issue of blocking grommets with tensioned strings.

    I suspect you will get more twisting than you think, because it can't go anywhere.

    1 piece or 2 piece (4 knot) is both fine. But I would say not pre-weaving the crosses is at least much safer, if not better, in many ways.
     
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  6. deepinthemusic

    deepinthemusic Regular Member

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    Yes i tension from the side, not exactly from the side but 3 mains from side to be exact, moving in to the center and from the center moving out to other side until there are 2 mains left, and then i go cross, so far no damage to any rackets i string, but i never go more than 27lbs

    I get twisting a bit, but still acceptable judging by the end result, 24 lbs on my machine using my technique of stringing, compared to 24 lbs 4knots stringing using technique from video above (using electrical stringing machine), with the same result, same ping from the string and also plays the same..

    Beside from endangering the racket which i think not a big threat since i string low tension and never broke a racket (hopefully never will :p), what am i missing here? Should i change my method if i get the result i want despite using wrong technique compared to others? I just started stringing so i still can change, but to do the method like in that video, i have to buy nicer machine which is more expensive, and i dont want to spend more than i need.. FYI the cheapest electrical machine (not famous brand) in my country around 2.000usd, i bought mine (crank head machine) around 400usd
     
  7. deepinthemusic

    deepinthemusic Regular Member

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  8. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    Stringing mains side to side is an absolute no-no. Even starting from the third string.

    Not only because it endangers the racket (and it is!) but also because it pulls the racket frame out of shape. You can spot this stringing style from the other end of the hall - one side will always be rounder than the other. It is bad for the racket in the long run but it is also very bad for the control as, since the racket is no longer symmetrical, it will never hit the shuttle straight. You should start in the middle and go no more than 2 mains in one direction at a time, four is still ok but anything more than that should really be avoided.

    I also agree that pre-stringing the crosses results in more twisting. It is not as critical and will not affect the racket or playing as much, especially at lower tensions. However if you are looking to improve your stringing, make it longer lasting and also high tension ready - that would be one of the first things to change (right after learning to string mains from the middle ;)).
     
    #8 stradrider, May 27, 2020
    Last edited: May 27, 2020
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  9. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    And honestly, I can’t make a real picture of how your pattern actually looks like. So you start with the third main from the side and don’t finish them on the other before you switch to the crosses. Then when on earth do you pull those outer mains?!

    Also, where do you see the advantage of doing it side-to-side instead of center-outwards? It’s the same number of pulls, the same number of racket rotations. Frankly, it doesn’t matter at all if you were lucky not to break a racket yet. You sure as hell cause some non-healthy stress to each and every frame that you’re stringing and it’s only a matter of time before you‘ll have the first corpse on your machine.
     
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  10. thyrif

    thyrif Regular Member

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    You don't need a fancy stringing machine to string properly. I have a dropweight machine and it works just fine. There are so many machines, they are all capable of proper stringing. Please just tension from the middle main strings outward, this is really important.
     
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  11. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    Agreed. In the photo above the machine is not fancy however it does have two clamps, so there is no excuse for starting mains on the side. I have seen people with only one flying clamp.... No excuse ether ;). But at least they do not have the possibility to start in the middle with one clamp... not until buying a second one...
     
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  12. deepinthemusic

    deepinthemusic Regular Member

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  13. deepinthemusic

    deepinthemusic Regular Member

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    heres a pic of my stringjob, i dont see any deformed frame, but maybe im wrong
    20200528_170312.jpg 20200528_170411.jpg 20200528_170435.jpg 20200528_170453.jpg 20200528_170519.jpg 20200528_170554.jpg 20200528_170626.jpg 20200528_170651.jpg 20200528_170722.jpg 20200528_170752.jpg
     
  14. deepinthemusic

    deepinthemusic Regular Member

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    before anyone ask, both of dzs is cheap fake racket for kids, with the purple string is 21 lbs, and one in the vid with yellow string is 24 lbs

    the lining n90iv is genuine racket which is use bg66force 22 lbs, strung about 6 weeks ago, and from testing with stringster app, i got 19.5 lbs result

    the astrox 88d is genuine and my currently go-to racket strung about 4 weeks ago 24 lbs, but with stringster app i got 21 lbs result

    i put pics so you guys can check if its deformed or not

    20200528_170828.jpg 20200528_170806.jpg 20200528_170845.jpg 20200528_170906.jpg 20200528_171349.jpg
     
    #14 deepinthemusic, May 28, 2020
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
  15. deepinthemusic

    deepinthemusic Regular Member

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    for @s_mair this is my pattern, you go from 1 to 86

    20200528_171419.jpg
     
  16. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    Now that is one unusual pattern. The question remains - why do make it so complicated in the first place? Where do you see the the advantage of starting side-to-side? I don’t get it.

    And again, it doesn’t matter if you see a deformation or if so far you haven’t had any breakages - it’s just bad and risky practise to go side-to-side. There is no point in defending that.
     
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  17. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    There is deformation. Look at the lower circle near the handle, the right side is rounder. Take a piece of paper, trace the head with the pen and than flip it - you will be shocked...
     
  18. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    Here is the gif created by flipping the image:
    ezgif-6-87a66ac8511f.gif
     
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  19. deepinthemusic

    deepinthemusic Regular Member

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    I have to do it pre weaved because
    1. At least i have two rackets to string everyday, while doing other works. So time is the essence here. With pre weaved i got several young assistants here, so i let them weave first before i put the racket on the machine. This is less work for me. If you check my video, i finish the racket in 18 minutes if youre not counting the minutes put in pre weaving. Thats quite fast right? I saw alan kakinamis record for 14 minutes, im 4 minutes behind. Thats kinda cool, right? LOL
    2. Im not that young anymore, i dont wanna put more strain on my eyes putting string to holes. My learning days, i have to do everything myself, my contact lens went from -5.5 to -6 in a matter of days.
    3. Business wise its not worth it, fee for stringing one racket is 2usd in my town (not include strings, only fee). I did this only out of passion for badminton and the last time i send my racket to the other stringer in my town im not satisfied, so i learn to do it myself. That was about 2 years ago.

    Why go side to side? Because thats what my teacher teach me, and AFAIK almost all the stringers who string one piece (2 knots) in indonesia, do it that way (side to side).

    The pattern was my modification from what i learned the first time because with my pattern, i dont overlap strings on side by side grommet. And no strings travel more than 2 grommets with my pattern, so i think its quite nice.

    And no, its not deformed. Its late here and i just got back from badminton, tomorrow i will post pic with the racket on top of millimeter paper so you can see that it still in its original shape.

    Im not trying to defend anything, im just trying to state all the facts that i know in this discussion so you guys can understand my point of view and come up with an argument so i can learn something new. I realize now that doing it side to side will do more harm compared to doing it from center out. But it have to be pre weaved, maybe i ll just have to do it from center out.

    Let say im doing it from center out, but pre weaved, do you guys see any other problems? String twisting on crosses is minimal if you see from the video, so i dont think its a big deal.

    Thank you for your time reading and explaining this, deeply appreciated. If i can do it from center out, i might be able to do high tension job. BC people is the best, i learned a lot. Thank you.
     
    #19 deepinthemusic, May 28, 2020
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
  20. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    I don't mind pre-weaving. I understand that you are used to do it and it's fine by me. Is it best? I don't think so. Is it bad? I don't know, I believe that you will reduce the life of the string, especially one like Ultimax, but how much??? That is the question.

    I think, it is more of a practical question and from my understanding full pre-weave method comes from shops trying to maximally increase the efficiency of using the machine. One person pre-weaving on the side while another finish it on the machine. That way the output of one machine is twice faster saving the money from buying another machine.

    Is it faster to do it that way home? I believe if anything but a bit slower. Weaving on the machine you have the stability and can use both hands when weaving, while on your laps you have to also hold the racket and strings are slack, which reduces the effectiveness. You also still have to pull each string with the hook on the machine between each tensioning which is an extra step you are doing when pre-weaving that is unnecessary. It is all up to the technique, but I would say in my opinion you cannot bit the efficiency and quality doing it all on the machine.

    Regarding the side to side mains... It is horrifying how many stringers still do it. It is simply outrageous. And it is absolutely unnecessary, really. It will be exactly the same speed if you start in the middle or on the side. I already demonstrated to you that even on the undestructible Astrox racket at very low tension there is quite serious deformation. Imaging on weak frame like Arcsaber FB? You would destroy it in a second and if it is not broken on the machine it will be broken very soon while playing.

    In addition to the deformed head you also add inconsistency. The mains on one side will end up with quite a bit higher tension, since the racket does not have any support on the other side when you start. ESPECIALLY on two point machine like you are using...

    I wanted to say that despite I am not agreeing with the stringing method, I must admit that photos of your stringing otherwise does look quite neat and if not the "side to side method" and bulged head on one side I would even say it is very good work. You take so much care to make all the strings spaced evenly, I am sure you would want to avoid returning deformed rackets to your customers....
     
    #20 stradrider, May 28, 2020
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
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