koo/tan advance to the wc final,let us heard what will the criticizer said?

Discussion in 'World Championships 2010' started by limsy, Aug 28, 2010.

  1. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    ^^ Put it this way. I'm from Malaysia myself and I know our culture and beliefs, both Malays And chinese. We're just too laid back and tidak apa as compared to China.
     
  2. RyuHayabusa999

    RyuHayabusa999 Regular Member

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    We need to have sports psychologists and play an attacking game....plus develop a 303 km/h smash.....We have to overcome China. They have dominated too much already!!!!!!
     
  3. Aspire

    Aspire Regular Member

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    I think there is no such thing as fortunate or unfortunate. Winning is all about ability, strategy and a little bit of luck as well. But in badminton like Gillian Clark always say one has to create his own luck.

    If Koo/Tan were to be caught in the Chinese pair's attack cycle every time they meet again in the future it would end up with the same results don't you think. I believed Fu/Cai would be happy to do that every single time.

    Like I suggested, continuos practice would improve their defence (provided they know where their weaknesses is) and not just empty talk.:)
     
    #163 Aspire, Sep 5, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2010
  4. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    ..i think either my post wasn't clear or you misunderstood my post (#136)..

    What i'm trying to explain is, their defending position relates to where their opponents made their attacks/smashes (further up in attacks from CY & FHF, further back they have to defend). The reason why KKK & TBH ended up all the way near the baseline is that from the initial setup, KKK & TBH failed to set up their attack from the beginning. Instead it was FHF forcing either TBH or KKK to do a lift which ended up just barely past FHF & CY's half court which initiated in smashes after smashes raining down. Add to that it was the steep (angle of the) smashes and placement of the smashes which forced KKK & TBH to keep lifting. Cai Yun's near the front of the court smash also caused KKK & TBH to keep lifting. From those smashes, i don't see how TBH and KKK would be able to make a cross court flat return or drop return to regain the attack. CY and FHF's smashes/attackes were basically sharper. Nothing KKK & TBH can do, worst if they had moved closer to the center...of course, one would also suggest, it was KKK & TBH's lack of defense/weak defense for not being able to make a counter-attack..
     
    #164 ctjcad, Sep 5, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2010
  5. Aspire

    Aspire Regular Member

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    What you are trying to say is Fu/Cai forced Koo/Tan to lift the shuttle in the first place:- understood and accepted.

    Now my questions are:

    1.) When Koo/Tan lift the shuttle why was it half court in the first place? I understand that in some rally (those rally that you are talking about) you are bound (forced) to send half court return and have no choice but to defend deep but not throughout the whole rally/match.

    What I was implying in the very first place of this issue was Koo/Tan defending position in general and not only during forced situation.

    2.) Also when defending, why they tend to lift the shuttle again and again until their opponents finally kill it off when they have the opportunity to break the attack (play a flat return instead)?

    It was best evidenced in the BAC 2007 and Olympic 2008 QF againts Kido/Setiawan in both occasions. If I remember correctly Markis Kido jump-smashed 8 times in a row! I noticed that quite long ago and it happened again in that WC final match which make me raised my opinions.
    Both videos are available on YouTube.

    3.) Is it their habit to keep on lifting the shuttle or was it because their defending tactic (poor positioning) that make them having to lift the shuttle all the time? This is my prime concern.

    If 2 and 3 are relevant (which I personally noticed), then IMHO I was saying that they could actually improve on it with the suggestions I stated on my previous posts. Also I found out that most of the Indonesian pairs are doing it and it works.

    All in all, it is their style when defending I was referring to and not only under forced situation which you pointed out.
     
    #165 Aspire, Sep 5, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2010
  6. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    ..i've pretty much explained and gave the "answer" to the 3 questions above in my previous post:
    "Add to that it was the steep (angle of the) smashes and placement of the smashes which forced KKK & TBH to keep lifting." I will add the word "stronger" to the smashes.

    1. If referring to the initial lift, it was because they were forced to lift out of balance/position. The following lifts, because "FHF's & CY's smashes were steep, stronger and had good placement."
    From what i recall, I also don't think KKK & TBH were standing deep near the baseline throughout the match. That last rally near the end of the 3rd game was the only one i recall where they had to stand & defend deep near the baseline. Again it goes back to the relation of where the smashes are executed and the defenders' position.

    2. Why they they tend to lift the shuttle again and again until the opponents finally kill it off when they have the opportunity to break the attack ? well, "because FHF & CY smashes were steep, stronger and had good placement." They could, of course, try to lift and direct the shuttle from one side of the court to another but then (as mentioned many a times) sometimes it's easier said than done for us to suggest they do this and that.

    3. It's most likely the latter. Partly also "because FHF & CY smashes were steep, stronger and had good placement" which forced them to keep lifting. It comes from both sides.

    IMO, in that particular rally near the end of the 3rd game, moving a step or a step and a half or 2 steps closer to the center of the court, as you suggested, probably won't help.

    Anyway, this is my last response. If still not satisfied, then you can download the video and show it to a local baddy coach(es) near your place and ask him for his opinion.
     
    #166 ctjcad, Sep 5, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2010
  7. staiger

    staiger Regular Member

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    I just like the way they play the game with a smile on their face and enjoying the game , it is only a game at the end of the day
     
  8. olympic

    olympic Regular Member

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    I was wondering why KKK-TBH were not aware of the flick serve by CY-FHF during the match in the Finals.Here cost the Malaysians 7 or 8 poitns.It was not only 1 or 2 times, but it was 7-8 times in the match(If i'm not mistaken).
    While KKK-TBH on the court were battling so tense,why couldn't Rexy and Pang who were in the court-side with more fresh mind reminded KKK-TBH to be more alert of the flick serve?
     
    #168 olympic, Sep 5, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2010
  9. badMania

    badMania Regular Member

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    Kido/Hendra were most affected by the flick-serves by the CHN pair during the Thomas Cup Final. I noticed that the MAS pair was also tricked a few times in the third-set.
     
  10. george@chongwei

    george@chongwei Regular Member

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    As a professional, they should know what is good for their game.. Just look at the korean pair for example.. Do you always see jjs/lyd keep playing defending in their game?

    And i would like to point out another very good example.. Kido/setiawan.. i'm actually quite impressive with their game plan though. The can force their opponent to lift the shuttle high up for them to smash.. This is all tactical;) They usually won't let their opponent to smash them though. QUick thinking on court is the key word;)
     
  11. Aspire

    Aspire Regular Member

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    So basically your answers to all my questions is because FHF/CY smashes were steep, strong and accurate. No doubt and don't worry, never was my intention at any given time that I am taking away credit from them.

    My answer to you again is if Koo/Tan defences were good enough, they wouldn't be sending half court returns and what I suggested actually can be done. I also listed out some suggestions of how they can actually do it. They failed to do it in that match but it doesn't mean they couldn't do it in the near future by improving their game. In fact I believed if they were to cool themselves down they could actually play/defend better in that match it self!

    As for your suggestion in your last paragraph, I did. I even tried it out my self although at amateur level. You can go ahead and argue that the smasher is no way near FHF/CY caliber but when come to think of it, my defend is no way near Koo/Tan as well but it can be done!
     
    #171 Aspire, Sep 5, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2010
  12. olympic

    olympic Regular Member

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    Ya,I was at the Stadium Putra then...I was so frustrated of the flick-serves by the Chinese pair.
     
  13. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Why? You should be more impressed that they (especially Cai) were able to win points with a simple flick serve.
     
  14. pBmMalaysia

    pBmMalaysia Regular Member

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    not really, you have a correct point there

    to sum up for you, one must know 2 things about his opponent when they are doing 300 kph smash:

    in defensive mode, player must have sharp eyes on their returns:

    - if deep enough what should follows ....

    - if not deep enough they should immediately change the rhythm, plan etc... if not, i see sitting ducks!
     
  15. Aspire

    Aspire Regular Member

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    Here you come again pBm with those key words:- change the rhythm or else sitting ducks.

    Knowing the Chinese players, they would not rest on their laurels and be satisfied with their current performances. If Fu/Cai attacking is already good enough, they would improve on it for sure.

    So what Koo/Tan should do. Pretends that there was nothing wrong with their game like someone suggested even after watching the video and instead blame it on Fu/Cai for playing a superb attacking match that................ and keep on sitting ducks?

    Its always a two-way traffic in badminton.
     
  16. eaglehelang

    eaglehelang Regular Member

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    I'm sure the coaches, KKK/TBH also already know their weaknesses. Same with Kido/Hendra, I'm sure they also know what's the problem when vs Fu/Cai. We no need to point out every point in public, for all & sundry to see ;);)
     
  17. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Put it this way:
    why don't you and your partner play a game against Koo and Tan and see if they will defend from baseline or will it be you. You will, I bet you.

    Why? Because they are just better than you in attacking, just like Fu and Cai are better than Koo and Tan in attacking.

    Simple as that.
     
  18. Aspire

    Aspire Regular Member

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    Put it this way too, your comparisons is actually .................... if you got what I meant.

    Of course an amateur like me playing with pro players like Koo/Tan I wouldn't stand any chance at all but Koo/Tan againts Cai/FU is a different story altogether pro vs pro. Got it?!

    I hope you to make a "sound" posting in the future to get a quality conversation going. Not everyone thinks like you here.:)
     
  19. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    It gives KKK/TBH more time to see the smashes

    .
    WOW...... This conversation is still going on. :):):)

    IMHO, KKK/TBH stood further back (nearer to the back) because of the powerful smashes from FHF.

    It gives KKK/TBH more time to see the smashes coming at them. The key words are "more time to see the smashes".
    .
     
    #179 chris-ccc, Sep 6, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2010
  20. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    ..so, would standing a step or a step and a half or 2 steps closer to the center, with rackets held higher than knee level, help in counter-attacking (stop the lifting) those powerful smashes??..
     

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