last minute change of rule to contain China

Discussion in 'Thomas Cup / Uber Cup 2010' started by Jonc108, May 8, 2010.

  1. fengyunfan

    fengyunfan Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2009
    Messages:
    249
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    China
    I read some rules, and found in APPENDIX 7 EXPLANATION OF ADJUSTED AND NOTIONAL RANKING which state the purpose of notional ranking adjustment.

    1.1.1. When a pair is newly-formed (e.g. because of injury or a change in partnership), the new pair may be composed of two strong players who would in all likelihood achieve a high WR once they have played together for some time.
    1.1.2. Notional ranking is a method to estimate the strength of such newly-formed pairs, and to seed them when appropriate.
    1.1.3. The pre-requisite for having notional ranking is the player(s) must have played with different partners during the 52 weeks period prior the seeding date.

    Cai&Fu re-formed on laste years AE, and they did not played with other players during 52 weeks period prior to TC seeding date, thus should not be regard as newly-formed pair, right? In this case, in my point of view, notional point adjustment rules is not appropriate to them this time.
     
  2. pBmMalaysia

    pBmMalaysia Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2009
    Messages:
    4,748
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    badminton coach
    Location:
    Kuching, Malaysia, Malaysia
    yes, bwf has outfoxed lyb! :D
     
  3. SibugiChai

    SibugiChai Regular Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Messages:
    4,317
    Likes Received:
    71
    Occupation:
    YAB
    Location:
    malaysia
    I think because Li yOngbo cant read english that's why they miss out these few important clauses...

    anyway... if its not a new rules than its alright but if new rules on the eve on thomas cup than it not fair..
     
  4. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2004
    Messages:
    5,558
    Likes Received:
    104
    Occupation:
    Software Engineer
    Location:
    KL & Sg
    There are 2 ways in which a pair can have notional rankings.
    1. The pair has no WR but each player has played with different partners. For instance, if FHF all of a sudden pairs up with XC, then they come with certain notional points (from the points where FHF picked partnering with CY, and the points for XC partnering GZD). 1.1.1 to 1.1.3 explains the motivation for such a rule. (It is not the rule, but the motivation behind it.)
    2. After a couple of tournaments, the new pair starts having a WR. However, the ranking would be low as the points only come from a few tournaments. It's like all of a sudden having high notional points to low ranking points. To mitigate this, new pairs (with few tournaments) with WR points are also given notional points.

    Currently, CY/FHF falls under Category 2. The rule does not know if they are a newly-formed pair or just a pair who has played less tournaments. It applies to everyone. As along as you are a pair with 2 to 7 tournaments, notional points apply to you. In the same PDF which contained the wordings you took from, the flowchart explains it best. Just remember that it applies to everyone, even though the motivation behind it is for newly-formed pairs.
     
  5. eaglehelang

    eaglehelang Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    12,303
    Likes Received:
    76
    Location:
    Malaysia
    http://sports.sinchew-i.com/node/13638?tid=3

    In the above article, BWF explains why. BWF said the rule already there since 2004. FU/Cai played less than 8 per year, then they use notional. Someone with better chinese pls elaborate.
     
  6. Polarrev

    Polarrev Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2007
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    MY
    You are right about it, it's been the rules since 2004. Normalization of points is applied if the MD had played less than 8 tournaments in a year from a total of 10, according to the article. Hence, Fu/Cai had 48483.66 in 6 tournaments; it's (48483.66/6)x10=80806.1 points. Whereas the other pair only obtaiend 58820 points in all 10 tournaments.

    Maybe LYB can't read English well and therefore ignore the rules. ;-)
     
    #46 Polarrev, May 9, 2010
    Last edited: May 9, 2010
  7. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2006
    Messages:
    26,902
    Likes Received:
    21
    Occupation:
    Professional Badminton Coach & Badminton Promoter
    Location:
    Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
    BWF is trying to target at China's MD. It can't be right

    .
    Thanks to our many leaned BCers for explaining the rules.

    When I first read the first few posts of this thread, I was thinking about what was said about BWF is trying to target at China's MD. I thought this can't be right.

    So now, no more dissatisfaction is to be felt. :):):)
    .
     
  8. Wong8Egg

    Wong8Egg Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    1,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Toronto
    So Cai/Fu is now moved to MD1? Is there any changes/impact on MS and other teams?
     
  9. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2004
    Messages:
    5,558
    Likes Received:
    104
    Occupation:
    Software Engineer
    Location:
    KL & Sg
    Cai/Fu is not moved to MD1. They have been MD1 all along.

    There is no impact on MS, as notional points are for doubles only.

    Unless the other teams field scratch pairs, notional points will not come into play. KOR without LYD will be fielding at least a scratch pair, so it may come into effect for them.
     
  10. fengyunfan

    fengyunfan Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2009
    Messages:
    249
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    China
    It's a pleasure to discuss with you!:)

    I read the rules carefully last night. I found actually there are three method applied to double players ranking:

    1. Notional ranking

    This system is applied to pairs which must have played with different partners during the 52 weeks period prior the seeding date.

    2. Adjusted ranking

    This one is applied to pairs which have competed in fewer than eight tournaments in the 52 week period prior the seeding date.

    3. World ranking

    For Cai&Fu, notional ranking is not appropriate, but they fall under adjusted ranking.

    Now it's clear, the Chinese national team should studied the rules more carefully. I was wonderring if they had problems due to language gap.

    And, I sincerely apologize to all for what I said on the topic inside this thread.
     
  11. ryim_

    ryim_ Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2006
    Messages:
    213
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    Capital Market Research
    Location:
    Hong Kong SAR, China
    But shouldn't they have been notified when they submitted their roster? I mean, everyone knew who they were going to field for each position all along.
     
  12. SibugiChai

    SibugiChai Regular Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Messages:
    4,317
    Likes Received:
    71
    Occupation:
    YAB
    Location:
    malaysia
    On the contrary... I think China should have put CY/FHF as their Number ONE pair when they submitted their roster because the whole world know CY/FHF were and are their NUMBER one Pair...
     
  13. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2004
    Messages:
    5,558
    Likes Received:
    104
    Occupation:
    Software Engineer
    Location:
    KL & Sg
    When the roster is submitted, it is just 10 individual names. How does BWF in its official capacity, know that CHN intend to play CY/FHF as MD2? Well, someone could unofficially inform CHN about this situation, but BWF has no obligation to inform anyone about rules that are already officially published.

    Anyway, when rosters were submitted, it was already too late (I think). CHN should have known much in advance if they really wanted CY/FHF as MD2. (Unfortunately, it will involve CY/FHF throwing matches away in tournaments.)
     
  14. Dr. Evil

    Dr. Evil Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    365
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    South Town
    Dirty tricks??? Hahahaha, this must be the best joke for the day. China have been known best for dirty tricks, so perhaps that is where the statement should be directed to.
     
  15. jasonmarc

    jasonmarc Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    Messages:
    10,358
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    MALAYSIA
    LOL.....outfoxed.....:D:D:D
     
  16. limsy

    limsy Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    22,187
    Likes Received:
    4
    Occupation:
    kuli
    Location:
    malaysia
    well
    u can learn when u admit mistake
    brave;)
     
  17. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2004
    Messages:
    5,558
    Likes Received:
    104
    Occupation:
    Software Engineer
    Location:
    KL & Sg
    I didn't know about the difference between notional and adjusted rankings. Thanks for sharing. We all try to learn from and to teach one another.

    Another reference which I just found. http://www.internationalbadminton.org/page.aspx?id=10513 Part III Section 3 Thomas & Uber Cups. See clause 12.3.2, which mentions that the order for the doubles will be following the notional/adjusted ranking rule.
     
  18. eaglehelang

    eaglehelang Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    12,303
    Likes Received:
    76
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Wow, very genteman/gentlelady of you to say so in public :)
     
  19. eaglehelang

    eaglehelang Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2007
    Messages:
    12,303
    Likes Received:
    76
    Location:
    Malaysia
    The Star Online > Sports
    Monday May 10, 2010
    Surprise for China as BWF announce Cai-Fu as top doubles pair
    CHINA were left with red faces when they found out that former world champions Cai Yun-Fu Haifeng cannot be the second ranked pair in their team for the Thomas Cup Finals.

    The Badminton World Federation (BWF) announced yesterday that based on notional ranking, world No. 8 Cai Yun-Haifeng will have to replace Guo Zhengdong-Xu Chen as the top pair in the team. Zhengdong-Xu Chen are now ranked at No. 4 in the world.

    The BWF’s chief operating officer, Thomas Lund, said that the rule on notional ranking had been in force since 2004 and no team should be taken by surprise.
    [​IMG] Top dogs: China’s strategy to utilise Cai Yun (left) and Fu Haifeng as their second ranked doubles pair has not worked out.

    “It has been a practice in the Thomas Cup Finals to use notional point calculation. The teams should have been aware of this,” he said.

    “There will be a need for this rule when a pair have played fewer than eight tournaments (over the last 12 months). This was explained to the team managers (on Saturday).”
    The notional ranking rule is to ensure that players are ranked based on their actual strength and to prevent teams from manipulating the order of play.
    Cai Yun-Haifeng had only competed in six tournaments and when divided with 10 tournaments under the notional ranking, their total ranking points are higher than Zhengdong-Xu Chen.

    The China BA protested during the team managers meeting but the BWF stood by their decision.

    Their chief coach, Li Yongbo, said: “We may be unhappy with this but we will have to accept the decision.”

    China would have had more options if Cai Yun-Fu Haifeng are ranked as their second pair. They can keep their main rivals guessing on their line-up for a tie.

    Malaysia’s doubles chief coach Rexy Mainaky said that the change in the ranking of the Chinese doubles pairs would not make any big difference to Malaysia.

    If Malaysia come up against China in the Finals, the doubles matches are expected to be between Koo Kien Keat-Tan Boon Heong and Cai Yun-Haifeng; and Mohd Fairuzizuan Mohd Tazari-Mohd Zakry Abdul Latif against either Zhengdong-Xu Chen or Zhang Nan-Chai Biao.

    “It is a bit of a surprise but it will not change anything. I am still confident that Koo and Tan can take on Cai Yun-Haifeng,” said Rexy.

    “It would have been good if we had known this earlier but now, we just have to change the strategy. It is not a big worry.”

    Japan’s chief coach Park Joo-bong said that BWF should have notified the teams on the approved doubles line-ups much earlier.

    “Fortunately, there is no change for Japan. The change for China certainly caught everyone by surprise.

    I thought that it was a new rule,” said the legendary Korean doubles specialist.

    “It would have been ideal if the BWF had notified the teams on notional ranking calculation as soon as the entries by name closed on April 23. It would have given all the teams some time to digest the information.

    “I can understand why China are jumping. They would have had an advantage having Cai Yun-Haifeng as the second doubles. Now they are back to square one.”

    http://thestar.com.my/services/printerfriendly.asp?file=/2010/5/10/sports/6226543.asp&sec=sports


    English version of the news
     
    #59 eaglehelang, May 10, 2010
    Last edited: May 10, 2010
  20. Jonc108

    Jonc108 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2008
    Messages:
    1,772
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    Badmintonshire

    I might have made the thread topic controversial by adding "to contain China" in the end (intended to stirred up more response)... sorry if this makes you feel uncomfortable...

    however, from the response of so many national team leaders, you would note that everyone is surprised with BWF's such decision. So either Lund was B.S.ing... or all these national team leaders were B.S.ing...

    it is not a matter of whether it affects which team, it just reflects how un-professional BWF is!!! they are ruining the sport of badminton!!

    to develop a sport, it is not to lower the standards of the elites (particularly by non-sports means) in order to allow more chances of the weaker, but should be to raise the standards of the weakers to catch up with the elites!!! otherwise the sport would only shrink and die!!

    BWF is the biggest joke!
     

Share This Page