LCW in his best form but LD can still dominate him

[rogerv2]

Badminton is much more than strategy, lol. You can have the best strategy in the world but if your skills are not there, it does not matter what strategy you use.

As for skill:

LD smash > LCW smash
LD net play > LCW net play
LD drive shots > LCW drive shots
LD deception > LCW deception
LD consistency > LCW consistency
LD stamina > LCW stamina
LD power > LCW power
LD anticipation > LCW anticipation
LD line judgement > LCW line judgement

LCW is lacking in alot of skills compared to LD. If LD is motivated and focused to win, there is nothing that LCW can do because LCW's skills are inferior to LD

Their skill is not that far apart. You are forgetting that application of skill is not guaranteed in real life. U must have noticed in the recent CSS final LD made so many mistakes, maybe as u put it, he was not motivated. I would say his application of the skill was off.

On the plus side, now I have a good excuse to give every time I lose to a player with less skill than me. I was not motivated/focused else I could have beaten you.

 

[RedShuttle]

Everyone can be defeated with the correct strategy.
What you & redshuttle are saying is the one not making sense. It is only right in paper. LD lost some matches because he was simply outplayed. Saying he lost because he did not want to win is sounding like a typical fan boy excuse.

It's very simple.

Given the great strategy, coaching and sparing partners that CJ has, he should have beaten LCW on a more regular basis. By BWF's record, CJ's last win against LCW was on March 8, 2008.

On the other hand, CL, in an identical environment, went from helpless against LCW to beating him back to back.

The key is people, not strategy. People can change, by adapting the right strategy, etc. But at the end of the day, it is still PEOPLE.

 

[Jonc108]

It's very simple. Given the great strategy, coaching and sparing partners that CJ has, he should have beaten LCW on a more regular basis. By BWF's record, CJ's last win against LCW was on March 8, 2008.On the other hand, CL, in an identical environment, went from helpless against LCW to beating him back to back.The key is people, not strategy. People can change, by adapting the right strategy, etc. But at the end of the day, it is still PEOPLE.

Could not be more than true....Similar theory, everyone sees how LD beats LCW so many times ( be it 18:8 or 20:8 in H2H), but could anyone else learn from these matches and beats LCW on a similar manner / strategy??? The answer is NO!!! (maybe CL in the years to come) Because there is only one LD!!!! Because it is not just simply by copying the strategy!!!!

 

[braids]

FYI, Lin vs Lee H2H is now 21:8, including the 1M-prize exhibition match a couple weeks ago.

Could not be more than true....Similar theory, everyone sees how LD beats LCW so many times ( be it 18:8 or 20:8 in H2H), but could anyone else learn from these matches and beats LCW on a similar manner / strategy??? The answer is NO!!! (maybe CL in the years to come) Because there is only one LD!!!! Because it is not just simply by copying the strategy!!!!

 

[zerosum88]

Looks like lot of you guys are talking about strategies.

1. Strategies are only important for players at the same level. Now, people are questioning whether LCW has the same skill level as LD. In my mind, LD has better smashes for sure. The others, like anticipation, movement, etc, I think they are about the same level.

2. Strategies mean nothing if you don't have the skill set. For instance, you can give me the best coach in the world, the best strategy, etc, I still can not beat LCW. LCW will still beat me 21-0.

3. The same goes to mental toughness. If you don't have the skillset and strategies, mental toughness mean nothing. You can't always blame LCW is mentally weak, as he still can beat me 21-0.

I think LD is a hair better than LCW in skill set (power, movement, judgement, etc), and just because of that hair difference in skill set, it makes big difference in the results.

 

[Jonc108]

You should ask Morten Frost. He said during OG08, LD is superior. But now he considers LCW better. Tactics is the key factor in outcome, all other things being equal. The right tactics is dependent on comprehensive preparation and comprehensive preparation now must include intensive homework that only CHN coaches are capable of. MAS players ( including LCW) and coaches just don t get it because it s time consuming and intense thinking. Now that is real, hard work.

Morten Frost who??? Talking about now? This year LCW with H2H 1:4 to LD is better than LD now?He should consult his compatriot Peter the Great who is better after he played with both for so many times....

 

[demolidor]

You should ask Morten Frost. He said during OG08, LD is superior. But now he considers LCW better. Tactics is the key factor in outcome, all other things being equal. The right tactics is dependent on comprehensive preparation and comprehensive preparation now must include intensive homework that only CHN coaches are capable of. MAS players ( including LCW) and coaches just don t get it because it s time consuming and intense thinking. Now that is real, hard work.

Morten Frost's judgement is compromised by his feelings for LCW, due their history. By past and recent results, LD is clearly better than LCW.

Now, this is sports. The beauty of sports is that anything can happen. If WKW and SS (or even KT) can beat LD, surely LCW can beat LD.

It is unrealistic and unproductive to think that there are some specific things such tactics or coaching that would enable LCW to beat LD. The reality is that the outcome depends more on LD than LCW. If LD sets out to win, he will win.

The best that LCW can do is not exhausting himself to better LD but to prepare himself to be at his very best in every encounter with LD and let the sporting god decide the outcome.

I'm pretty sure he was asked that before the WC final and at the time the majority thought so here as well (iirc). Now that I've replied anyway might as well make the comment I had about the thread title : LCW surely is not in his best form at the moment, not since the WCs which should have been a peak moment in physical, mental, etc. preparation which you cannot hold a whole year long ... but maybe now with less pressure he's not playing so uptight (should probably make some time to watch a few of these recent matches )

 

[V1lau]

I think the difference in opinion stems from the fact that both fans look at the players differently.

Many Lee Chong Wei fans believe LCW is the equal and/or better intrinsically than Lin Dan. So if you believe LCW is a better overall badminton player than Lin Dan, the only way you can justify the HTH record against LD and no one else, is that LCW suffers from a systematical or psychological deficiencies.

Many Lin Dan fans believe LD is better/ or a lot better intrinsically than LCW. They believe they are justified because of the lopsided HTH record and the way LD consistently makes LCW look like he's suffering psychological damage.

 

[pjswift]

I'm pretty sure he was asked that before the WC final and at the time the majority thought so here as well (iirc). Now that I've replied anyway might as well make the comment I had about the thread title : LCW surely is not in his best form at the moment, not since the WCs which should have been a peak moment in physical, mental, etc. preparation which you cannot hold a whole year long ... but maybe now with less pressure he's not playing so uptight (should probably make some time to watch a few of these recent matches )

Actually MF was asked by GC while commentating during the WC final itself. MF said LD was superior at the OG08 period but now LCW is better than LD overall even if LCW may not win the WC. MF s commentating has always been a learning experience because there and then he could point out LCW s tactical flaws, BEFORE and not after a point. This is what is meant by tactics determining the outcome of a match. Knowing how to execute your strengths so opponent has no chance to blunt them. You will note that LD walks a lot in circles between points when he plays LCW. LD does not do this to other opponents. LD knows LCW has the marginal natural speed advantage over him so he always try to ' jam ' LCW s speed momentum by 'walking'. When LD has to resort to that sort of tactics, he is indirectly telling LCW that LCW is better than him. The other indication of LCW s superiority is his wins over other opponents. Those victories are clean, straightforward and with standard and not maximum effort from LCW. Largely because LCW s opponents could not cope with his speed.

 

[Loh]

The recent encounters between these two long-time rivals put LD comfortably ahead, IMHO.

I was surprised at LD's display and if he continues in this form and stays focussed, LCW will find it hard to take the London Oly crown!

 

[RedShuttle]

Until the objective of the game is changed such that it is better to lose than to win, LD is better than LCW. Simple as that.

This discussion is getting rather pathetic.

 

[braids]

True.

Boh Leh fans just die hard to admit this simple fact.

Regarding opinions, I think PG's should be valued more than MF's because PG has been playing against LD, LCW, TH, and many good players in the previous generations. It is PG who commented that LD is the best MS player in history.

Let alone these might-be-subjective opinions, I would like to base my judgement on the H2H record. 21:8 (5:1 this year so far) explains everything. More over, this year LD has already beaten LCW, for the first time, 4 times in a row.

Until the objective of the game is changed such that it is better to lose than to win, LD is better than LCW. Simple as that.

This discussion is getting rather pathetic.

 

[rogerv2]

True.

Boh Leh fans just die hard to admit this simple fact.

Regarding opinions, I think PG's should be valued more than MF's because PG has been playing against LD, LCW, TH, and many good players in the previous generations. It is PG who commented that LD is the best MS player in history.

Let alone these might-be-subjective opinions, I would like to base my judgement on the H2H record. 21:8 (5:1 this year so far) explains everything. More over, this year LD has already beaten LCW, for the first time, 4 times in a row.

Bro .. nobody is disputing LD is better.
We are just saying even the best can be beaten with correct strategy during the OLY12. Some of you seem to think LD is unbeatable just because he holds a superior H2H stat or is more skilled etc. Maybe he is the favorite but victory is not guaranteed.

 

[braids]

Dude, I never said LD is unbeatable otherwise how come he has lost to LCW 8 times? Neither did I claim that LD will definitely win the OG12. In fact, I don't care so much if he would win it or not, as what he has achieved appears more than enough to me.

Even if LD lost in OG12, it might not be due to the strategy taken by his opponent, whoever he'd be. What I (and some other probably) do think is, LD is so well skilled technically and mentally that a right strategy designed to beat him, if it would exist, is far from being sufficient for someone to beat him.

Bro .. nobody is disputing LD is better.
We are just saying even the best can be beaten with correct strategy during the OLY12. Some of you seem to think LD is unbeatable just because he holds a superior H2H stat or is more skilled etc. Maybe he is the favorite but victory is not guaranteed.

 

[V1lau]

What is the "correct strategy", what is LCW doing wrong in your opinion? What weakness in Lin Dan's game can LCW exploit or what LCW attribute is better than LD?

 

[rogerv2]

What is the "correct strategy", what is LCW doing wrong in your opinion? What weakness in Lin Dan's game can LCW exploit or what LCW attribute is better than LD?

Ah .. finally some good questions

What is LCW doing wrong? Here is some of my thoughts

1. Unforced errors
In WC he just left so many shots that eventually went in. If I was him, I would have just played it as LD hardly hits out. He has also been hitting out too often in the recent games. Impossible to beat LD if this continues.

2. Force mistakes out of LD
For this a through analysis needs to be done on LD's games and come up with a strategy to force mistakes out of him. Unfortunately Chen Long seem to know how to do this to LCW already.

3. Stop lifting to LD's forehand. Most of the time his smashes straight down the line is impossible to defend.

4. LCW slows down the intensity in 2nd game for some reason. Probably to conserve energy in case it goes to 3 games. Need to work on his fitness.

 

[yamsyams]

Actually MF was asked by GC while commentating during the WC final itself. MF said LD was superior at the OG08 period but now LCW is better than LD overall even if LCW may not win the WC. MF s commentating has always been a learning experience because there and then he could point out LCW s tactical flaws, BEFORE and not after a point. This is what is meant by tactics determining the outcome of a match. Knowing how to execute your strengths so opponent has no chance to blunt them. You will note that LD walks a lot in circles between points when he plays LCW. LD does not do this to other opponents. LD knows LCW has the marginal natural speed advantage over him so he always try to ' jam ' LCW s speed momentum by 'walking'. When LD has to resort to that sort of tactics, he is indirectly telling LCW that LCW is better than him. The other indication of LCW s superiority is his wins over other opponents. Those victories are clean, straightforward and with standard and not maximum effort from LCW. Largely because LCW s opponents could not cope with his speed.

Please stop making pathetic excuses for LCW's losses. When LD wins, LD played better than LCW on that day. When LCW wins, LCW played better than LD on that day. That is all.

 

[rogerv2]

Please stop making pathetic excuses for LCW's losses. When LD wins, LD played better than LCW on that day. When LCW wins, LCW played better than LD on that day. That is all.

Cant argue with this. Well said.

 

[V1lau]

Ah .. finally some good questions

What is LCW doing wrong? Here is some of my thoughts

1. Unforced errors
In WC he just left so many shots that eventually went in. If I was him, I would have just played it as LD hardly hits out. He has also been hitting out too often in the recent games. Impossible to beat LD if this continues.

2. Force mistakes out of LD
For this a through analysis needs to be done on LD's games and come up with a strategy to force mistakes out of him. Unfortunately Chen Long seem to know how to do this to LCW already.

3. Stop lifting to LD's forehand. Most of the time his smashes straight down the line is impossible to defend.

4. LCW slows down the intensity in 2nd game for some reason. Probably to conserve energy in case it goes to 3 games. Need to work on his fitness.

1."Unforced errors"

My opinion is that these are forced errors, because LD is probably the only player that is as fast, if not faster than LCW. I think the average rhythm of the match is slightly faster than what LCW can keep up with, hence the mental mistakes. I think LCW speed has peaked and I don't expect him to be able to improve that anytime soon.

2. "Force mistakes out of LD"
Again what attributes does LCW have over LD to consistently put himself in a position to cause LD to error?

3. "LD's forehand ..."
Agreed, especially need to stop dropping to LD forehand corner, when LCW is pushed back to his back-court forehand corner.

4. "LCW slows down 2nd game ..."
I kind of agree, but I think it's more like LD turning up the intensity and LCW buckling to the pressure!

 

[V1lau]

Maybe it's time to start a "Peter Gade in great form, but LCW can still dominate him!" thread, Boleh! maybe that will help LCW fan's to understand what we are talking about? Do you think Peter Gade is simply using the wrong strategy or because LCW is just a better badminton player?