and perhaps u'll find a little better player than LD in future.It is continuous.
Let's conclude it, Lin Dan is the best MS baddy player in human history.
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and perhaps u'll find a little better player than LD in future.It is continuous.
Look at this way - Zhao Jianhua as from what I heard, trains 1 hr daily if he feels well. Coaches don't risk pushing him much due to health issues as we already know. Yet his accomplishments are quite good.
It's really hard to compare players. If I had to, I would chose Zhao Jianhua as a better player. Zhao won the Japan Open and All England at 18 yo, and in my opinion technically better than Lin Dan at that age. At 18, Zhao's court coverage skills is superior to the pre OG'08 Lin Dan and not weaker than the current Lin Dan, I think.
1 to 1 comparison is not so straight forward sometime. LD, IMO, as a composite whole right now, is better than when ZJH. I have alway rated ZJH higher than LD but when LD won the OG, he had reach and surpassed ZJH as a better complete player. At his peak, ZJH is near perfect but ZJH is also inconsistent, he can not win title continuously. In one match, I have seen ZJH lost to ardy wiranata with stupid careless unforced errors. LD can consistently win, barring internal agenda
Like TH, ZJH has natural gift so they excel at an earlier age. However, true winner must continue to evolve and improve.
LD didn't invented all his skills, he borrowed some from ZJH, sun jung, tang fu, and many before him, including from his many opponents. Every prior known weakness of LD have been corrected (or hidden skillfully) by LD: His robotic play, his no netting skills, his weak backhand, smash only type of a player image, all fixed. So the best is the one who is the best learner. Same thing as asking is great leader born or made? i say both but also depends. It depends how high of a standard each of them willing to pursue.
Like TH, ZJH has natural gift so they excel at an earlier age. However, true winner must continue to evolve and improve. LD didn't invented all his skills, he borrowed some from ZJH, sun jung, tang fu, and many before him, including from his many opponents. Every prior known weakness of LD have been corrected (or hidden skillfully) by LD: His robotic play, his no netting skills, his weak backhand, smash only type of a player image, all fixed. So the best is the one who is the best learner. Same thing as asking is great leader born or made? i say both but also depends. It depends how high of a standard each of them willing to pursue.
ZJH is gifted in skills and touches like TH, but LD is gifted with excellent anticipation and athletic body, but people always neglected that.
ZJH has very good anticipation and is also very athletic. Just watch any of his match. See how he intercepts of opponents' lifts/clears. His movement is similar to LD's: almost just one jump from the base position, body fully stretched, use only wrist power and yet was able to hit a reasonably powerful smash. ZJH in good form simply has everything.
That said, I don't think ZJH of 1990, if brought here by a time machine, can beat LD in OG final. Because LD's physical ability is super-human in OG final, exaggerating a bit, he ran faster than the shuttle in that match. No wonder LCW had no idea what to do.
On the other hand, I believe ZJH at his best can easily destroy any of the current top 10s except LD and LCW.
That said, I don't think ZJH of 1990, if brought here by a time machine, can beat LD in OG final. Because LD's physical ability is super-human in OG final, exaggerating a bit, he ran faster than the shuttle in that match. No wonder LCW had no idea what to do.
On the other hand, I believe ZJH at his best can easily destroy any of the current top 10s except LD and LCW.
ZJH is gifted in skills and touches like TH, but LD is gifted with excellent anticipation and athletic body, but people always neglected that.
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LCW?
Are you sure? He is good, but he is not at ZJH's level yet.I grow up watching ZJH play a lot. ZJH can be compared to Brazil in soccer. LD is like Italy. If ZJH plays his perfect game and cut down unforced errors to a minimum, he can still beat LD. But too bad, if they play 10 games, ZJH can be at his best probably in 4 games. So LD will probably win 6/4. That's why I feel that LD is a better player.
Yes... LCW at his best could be too fast for the ZJH in 1990.
LCW?
I grow up watching ZJH play a lot. ZJH can be compared to Brazil in soccer. LD is like Italy. If ZJH plays his perfect game and cut down unforced errors to a minimum, he can still beat LD. But too bad, if they play 10 games, ZJH can be at his best probably in 4 games. So LD will probably win 6/4. That's why I feel that LD is a better player.
General Foo
Regular Member
i conclude it Lin Dan is undoubtedly the best player in human history. He is the most dominant sportsman in the world.
yourbestfriend
Regular Member
are you guys for real?! It shouldn't even be an argument.
ZJH's era was almost 20 years ago! Superior training techniques, nutrition, and technology means that players now are a lot faster, stronger, agile and smarter than they were before. Pretty much coaches took all the ingredients of what made past players so successful and added to it.
I remember hearing an ex-english national player from the 1980's saying that he didn't think he could get a single point against BCL.
No respect to ZJH as he was a great player for his era, but LD would beat the crap outta him if they ever played. Not only LD, lots of top players now would be able to beat ZJH. yah even yo-yo hafiz haha
It's like comparing a 1990 Ferrari to a 2009 Ferrari. Yah, the 1990 Ferrari was amazing for it's era, but if they ever raced the 2009 would completely destroy the 1990 Ferrari.
ZJH's era was almost 20 years ago! Superior training techniques, nutrition, and technology means that players now are a lot faster, stronger, agile and smarter than they were before. Pretty much coaches took all the ingredients of what made past players so successful and added to it.
I remember hearing an ex-english national player from the 1980's saying that he didn't think he could get a single point against BCL.
No respect to ZJH as he was a great player for his era, but LD would beat the crap outta him if they ever played. Not only LD, lots of top players now would be able to beat ZJH. yah even yo-yo hafiz haha
It's like comparing a 1990 Ferrari to a 2009 Ferrari. Yah, the 1990 Ferrari was amazing for it's era, but if they ever raced the 2009 would completely destroy the 1990 Ferrari.
badders2006
Regular Member
are you guys for real?! It shouldn't even be an argument.
ZJH's era was almost 20 years ago! Superior training techniques, nutrition, and technology means that players now are a lot faster, stronger, agile and smarter than they were before. Pretty much coaches took all the ingredients of what made past players so successful and added to it.
I remember hearing an ex-english national player from the 1980's saying that he didn't think he could get a single point against BCL.
No respect to ZJH as he was a great player for his era, but LD would beat the crap outta him if they ever played. Not only LD, lots of top players now would be able to beat ZJH. yah even yo-yo hafiz haha
It's like comparing a 1990 Ferrari to a 2009 Ferrari. Yah, the 1990 Ferrari was amazing for it's era, but if they ever raced the 2009 would completely destroy the 1990 Ferrari.
great post - very direct and speaks the "unspeakable" truth.
we still live in age whereby the greats of yesteryear are irrationally placed on an untouchable pedestal.
Evolution takes place in sports too. Advances in sports technology, training and nutrition have allowed this. Another example - look at how the 100m record has improved over the years!
now, whether today's players are more skillful than those of yesteryear is a completely different issue...
are you guys for real?! It shouldn't even be an argument.
ZJH's era was almost 20 years ago! Superior training techniques, nutrition, and technology means that players now are a lot faster, stronger, agile and smarter than they were before. Pretty much coaches took all the ingredients of what made past players so successful and added to it.
I remember hearing an ex-english national player from the 1980's saying that he didn't think he could get a single point against BCL.
No respect to ZJH as he was a great player for his era, but LD would beat the crap outta him if they ever played. Not only LD, lots of top players now would be able to beat ZJH. yah even yo-yo hafiz haha
It's like comparing a 1990 Ferrari to a 2009 Ferrari. Yah, the 1990 Ferrari was amazing for it's era, but if they ever raced the 2009 would completely destroy the 1990 Ferrari.
Well said. I like your Ferrari example.
I am sure somebody in the future will once again top out LD, but for now I'd say he is the best.
This question comes up because people have quite different ideas of what 'best baddy player' means. It could mean any of the following (and implied by some posters)
1. He has the highest probability of winning against any player.
2. He has the best technique
3. He is the most famous player (good or bad)
4. He has most fans (or admirers)
A marketing survey is likely to focus on meaning 3 or 4. What is discussed probably implies 1. Historical record will settle that LD has the best winning record against current players in the past 18 months. Guessing what will happen with a time machine is anyone's guess.
For that matter, If ZJW is born 15 years later, I suspect he will beat LD since any advantage of evolution is eliminated.
1. He has the highest probability of winning against any player.
2. He has the best technique
3. He is the most famous player (good or bad)
4. He has most fans (or admirers)
A marketing survey is likely to focus on meaning 3 or 4. What is discussed probably implies 1. Historical record will settle that LD has the best winning record against current players in the past 18 months. Guessing what will happen with a time machine is anyone's guess.
For that matter, If ZJW is born 15 years later, I suspect he will beat LD since any advantage of evolution is eliminated.
ZJH is gifted in skills and touches like TH, but LD is gifted with excellent anticipation and athletic body, but people always neglected that.
Somewhere in the forum you can find the 1985 All England final between Zhao and Morten Frost. You can watch the match and conclude if the about 20 year old Zhao anticipation and athleticism. Remember Morten Frost, was a top singles player and regarded a master tactician.
My personal opinion on Zhao at 19, was already a great player, great court coverage skills (technically superior than the current Lin Dan) and excellent shots selection, tactically speaking. When we compare the attacking ability, Zhao already had a good net play at that age which allowed him to create the attacking opportunities for himself- can we analyse the placements for example, the angles that ZJH could produce vs LD?
Also on this forum, there is an interview on coach Fang Kai Xiang. Look for it and find out his views on badminton. It's an good read and I found it educational.
phaarix
Regular Member
It's like long time tennis fans. They still think the like of Borg or McEnroe could stand up to Federer or Nadal (assuming they use modern equipment 
). If you actually watch them it's glaringly obvious who is "better". As to who is "greater", that's more open to debate 
(and kind of down to personal opinion too...). It's just like athletics or swimming where world records are broken year after year. I agree with "yourbestfriend" hehe.
). If you actually watch them it's glaringly obvious who is "better". As to who is "greater", that's more open to debate (and kind of down to personal opinion too...). It's just like athletics or swimming where world records are broken year after year. I agree with "yourbestfriend" hehe.I disagree, best simply means better than anyone else that's it. No matter who you're playing with you're. Like LCW could have more fans on BC, but he is not a true #1 until he beat LD regularly.
Yes, I've watched that match on Youtube, but I am not convinced. Simply open up any one of today's game, doesn't has to be LD, and you'll notice immediately the difference between the game pace.
If you are a competitive badminton player, you should know that a fast pacing game would make your regular play and anticipation that much harder.
Now let's look at Peter Gade and Taufik, both have excellent skill and technique, but they are simply outmatch by LCW and LD. That's said, good technique is only one aspect of the game, physical fitness also take a huge part of it. Not to mention LD has excellent technique also, he is extremely deceptive and accurate with his over head shoot, good touches at the net and excellent retrieving ability.
If you've watch this year AE, the commentator (Gail??) also believed that LD has topped all the greats from the past since the Olympic.
Or put it this way...
LD = 4 times AE under his belt (or 5 times, some would agree
)ZJH = 2 times
4 > 2
I dont see how being more defensive give LCW an advantage in the old system? If you are referring about the game lasting longer... LD stamina is at least equal if not much superior than LCW... Also in terms of getting long streak of points, LD does that a lot better when he increases his pace than anyone else...
I have watched the best players from the late 1950s to the present. You cannot compare players from different eras. In the old days the game was an amateur's game; today it is professional. You cannot compare amateurs with professionals. Training methods have also changed; the modern game has benefited from a better understanding of sports science. Today's racquets are very different from those of the past-razor sharp vs blunt weapons of war. The competition has also leapfrogged, unlike the old days when top rated players almost always made it to the final few rounds. There are many hurdles to overcome today before a top player gets into even the quarter finals. In the past a top player used the few few rounds more for practice sessions. I have seen the great Rudy Hartono many times but I do not think that at his best he could get past the 2nd ground of today's super series. This applies to even the great Tong Si Fu, Wong Peng Soon or even ZJH.
Sometimes nostalgia colours our view of things that span a long period of time. As one ages his view or memory of the distant past is more vivid than the recent past.
Sometimes nostalgia colours our view of things that span a long period of time. As one ages his view or memory of the distant past is more vivid than the recent past.
ctjcad
Regular Member
It's subjective..
- How do we define as "the best MS baddy player in human history"??
- What criteria(s) or achievement(s) must one have to be considered "the best MS baddy player in human history"??
- Is it by the number of titles won? The number of major titles (AE, WC & Olympics) won?
If we are to include the WC (started in 1977) and the inclusion of badminton in the Olympics (started in 1992), looking at LinDan's achievements of winning the 3 current major titles, yes, he's arguably the only one to have accomplished the 3 major titles.
As a comparison, I would even compare LinDan's current domination to how Air Jordan dominated the nearly watered-down NBA for most of the 90s (not to say the current MS field is as watered down).
However, neither the WC nor the Olympics go back to the early days of All-England. And in either case's absence in the past, neither it's LinDan's fault or those great players of the past.
And then, one might come up with the argument below..
..Does that make Rudy Hartono all in a class by himself??..
So, the way i see it, yes, *as of now* LinDan is in a class all by himself.
But unless our world ends in some kind of a catastrophe, say this weekend or next month or a yr from now (God forbid), human history will continue on and we can't really judge/compare/gauge until humanity really vanishes from this earth. Who would ever predicted, during the 50s or during ZJH's or Yang Yang's time, that a player of LinDan's caliber will appear & dominate? Same question now, will there be another baddy great in the future??..
..to add, one could also ask:
- How do we define as "the best MS baddy player in human history"??
- What criteria(s) or achievement(s) must one have to be considered "the best MS baddy player in human history"??
- Is it by the number of titles won? The number of major titles (AE, WC & Olympics) won?
If we are to include the WC (started in 1977) and the inclusion of badminton in the Olympics (started in 1992), looking at LinDan's achievements of winning the 3 current major titles, yes, he's arguably the only one to have accomplished the 3 major titles.
As a comparison, I would even compare LinDan's current domination to how Air Jordan dominated the nearly watered-down NBA for most of the 90s (not to say the current MS field is as watered down).
However, neither the WC nor the Olympics go back to the early days of All-England. And in either case's absence in the past, neither it's LinDan's fault or those great players of the past.
And then, one might come up with the argument below..
..another baddy great Rudy Hartono had won it 8 times, and is still the all-time mark for an AE MS title. Some would even say the All-England is arguably the most prestigious badminton title in the world....
LD = 4 times AE under his belt (or 5 times, some would agree
ZJH = 2 times
4 > 2
..Does that make Rudy Hartono all in a class by himself??..So, the way i see it, yes, *as of now* LinDan is in a class all by himself.
But unless our world ends in some kind of a catastrophe, say this weekend or next month or a yr from now (God forbid), human history will continue on and we can't really judge/compare/gauge until humanity really vanishes from this earth. Who would ever predicted, during the 50s or during ZJH's or Yang Yang's time, that a player of LinDan's caliber will appear & dominate? Same question now, will there be another baddy great in the future??..
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wong8egg, i share yourview. I will elaborate more below
hi viver, long time no chat.
I appreciate your admiration of old master's wisdom and teaching. However, if u do comparison of today's players, u have to also acknowledge the merit of speed and power of today's game. If technique and stroke are so highly valued over speed and power, why the current top 2 players LD and LCW can consistently beat TH, PG (also referenced by wong8egg) where the latter players supposed to have better stroke and techniques ?? Didn't we had a debate before where u went as far to say that top world pro WS can beat our canadian national MS because the formers have better technique and footwork and stroke skill, and these skills can overcome canadian MS's power, speed and inferior techniques and strokes? My disagreement with this comparison is unchange. I value speed and power because I have more room to improve on these variables than stroke and technique. With stroke and technique, the value of further and further improvement, if any, become less and less valuable. Maybe more valuable to the viewing audience with Ooo and Awww but to a player, a point is won or lost, there is no bonus point for artistic value or point deduction for a poor looking stroke. Today desirable quality is what gets u the points in most effective and lowest risk path, that is speed and power. TH fans can oogling all they want about TH backhand smash or his netting skills, bottom line is, did these skills helped him getting more titles? Bruce Lee redefined martial art by extracting only the effective skills from each type of fighting and discarded the ineffective. He use to laugh at those old chinese flowery movement and flailing of arms and legs. Real fight should be over in less than 30 seconds.
I have read the fang kai xiang interview with Racquet Malaysia. I fully understood where he is coming from. His remarks are in the context those olden days. I found one contradiction from him, IMO. He valued techiques and stroke and tactic very highly but he also admired tang X Fu the most as a complete player but yet, tang fu is known to be a power and speed player, who like to attack. Sure tang fu has techique and deception too but back in those days, all good players have them too.
Let me give my explanation why FKX's say those things. You see, back in 50's and 60's, racket is heavy, shaft is extra extra stiff, and the gut string tension is low by today's standard. The smash power back in those days isn't as threaten as today's player and equipment. Therefore, tactic, stroke, techique, deception are more valued. If FKX back then got a glimpse of how fast and powerful of players of today, he would place speed and power more highly.
To prove my point, Fang Kai Xiang himself said he played for china from age of 20 to 38. Back in those days, Men players often play more than TWO events(MS, MD), some even THREE events (MS, MD, XD). There is no way today player's body could last that long in competitive form. This is enough to convince me to conclude that the intensity of past era's matches aren't as high as today's. I won't doubt that they have long matches but that is related to stamina, not intensity and the force exerted on each more powerful stroke.
From FKX interview, it also may explain why LCW is stuck at 2nd best. FKX said "National champion Misbun Sidek has one of the best technique in the world, better than morten frost but he lacks leg power and finishing". With no disrespect to misbun, to me it seem like misbun is teaching LCW techniques more so than speed and power. Not finishing is also LCW's trademark. I think i see a correlationship here.