MS: Who has the best head to head record of top players

Discussion in 'Professional Players' started by freelast, Sep 10, 2010.

  1. InvinKoh

    InvinKoh Regular Member

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    Please allow me to give my humble opinion. With full respect to LD achievement, I think why he is not the WR#1 player under BWF ranking has been rightly pointed out by pBm.

    Allow me to add on to it a little bit, LD did not take part in as many tournament as the current WR#1. LD may has the most successful H2H record among the top players but we must also consider the following.

    - If LD took part in as many competition as the WR#1, he may overwhelmed with tiredness and may not have that kind of H2H records.
    - If LD took part in as many competition as the WR#1, his tactic of playing may be already familiarized by his competitor hence resulted in not as good achievement

    However, the above 2 is just an example with "if" statement. There could be a possibility that if he took part in as many tournament as his rival he still able to maintain his records. We won't really know what the outcome is until he have prove something to us on that particular matter.

    Just my 2 cents
     
  2. Aspire

    Aspire Regular Member

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    Fair and accurate statement.

    It also explain the outcome of the TC2010 played againts LCW since LCW participated in all SS events prior to the TC.

    I guess the same can be applied to some majors won by LD since he only prepared for those.

    Sorry to jump out of topic a little.
     
  3. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    hehehe true mate, and i wont be surprised with that :rolleyes:
     
  4. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    :p..now i wonder why i've put out an effort in trying to defend freelast's point of view (on why he based it on CJ's WC win); it should probably be him who should be doing the explanation. Also, if you notice in the 1st post, freelast actually asked us if CJ should be no.2 based on his WC win. In essence, he kept it open for us.
    Anyway, i will entertain and give my own thoughts (again, these are my view. It's better to read from freelast's own explanation):

    - My friend, if you want to use and compare LCW's WC match and LD's JO match to counter, it's fine. But if you didn't notice, yes, LD actually could've finished off the match in straight games. In fact, if you check the stats, he was leading in some portion of the 1st game (even had a 19-17 lead) and actually tied the score in the 1st game. In essence, the 1st game between LD vs. LCW could've gone either way.
    Now, in comparison, in the LCW vs. TH's 2010 WC match, LCW didn't even lead nor tied at any point in the 1st game. As a matter of fact he was trailing all the way in the 1st game. Mind explaining why did that happen, if LCW wasn't supposedly injured til the 3rd game? Considering also LCW had pwned TH in the H2H record and had won the last 5 meetings between them?

    - Like i already mentioned a few posts/pages back, the debate should've ended by the 2nd page (see post #193). And i think most people would agree LCW is no.2 behind LD (using H2H record or not). The debate, however, has centered around whether to use H2H as the sole basis to determine whether LD is the "best" player. The fact is, this thread is not about whether LD is the "best" or not. I'm sure you also concur LD is arguably currently no.1. There's also a disagreement abt how freelast used his reasonings to make a claim that LD is no.1. Then there's also a claim that there's a different intention in him opening this thread. One which i find strange because i thought it's pretty straightforward what freelast had asked initially. freelast then suggested anyone can fill in who is the no.2 player based on their own subjective reasonings, if they don't agree with his suggestions (using H2H and the recent WC win by CJ).
    And now, the discussion has veered off even more (i don't know why?) by suggesting what about the last 3 or 5 matches? should we count them to determine whether LD is the "best"?
    Dudes! Why are we debating abt whether LD is the "best" player or not? The thread title is very clear (or at least been made simpler). It's not asking whether LD is the "best" or not. It's simply asking us to figure out the overall H2H records of top players!..Why is it so hard to accept that???..

    - Yes, i know all about the H2H records between CJ vs. PG and CJ vs. TH. Btw, did you know PG actually won over CJ twice in a row prior to this match (yes, they haven't met since 2008 for many reasons). That's the reason why i asked because i felt PG at least has a better chance to defeat CJ than Taufik (based on the H2H record).

    - As for your last point, i think we shall wait for freelast's explanation as he's probably best to explain to you/us; if he should come back again.:cool:

    ..now, shall we return back to the topic or thread title at hand??..
     
    #244 ctjcad, Sep 28, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2010
  5. InvinKoh

    InvinKoh Regular Member

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    - Dude, I didn't intended to use to use LD vs LCW game in JO to compare directly to LCW vs TH match during WC. Why am I using the example is just saying that badminton can go to 3 matches. Players get on form and off form every now and then. Couple with other external factor (ie. wind flow in the stadium) it could produce different result. In addition to that, have you ever seen LCW played TH with a graph of straight line (TH get straight point in a row until end of game)? Do you seriously think this is normal? The only reason I am pointing this out is just to accurately point out that LCW indeed had a back injury and it was supported by certified professional doctor (I hope no more dispute from you anymore from this point onwards).

    - On your point 2, no doubt I concurred with you that LD is the best player in men single assuming we based on all currently available track records. (Not taking into account of assumptions I pointed out above where LD plays as many tournament as LCW).

    On a side note, I have never dispute LD is the best player nor trying to prove who is no 1 player in this thread. In fact I was just participating in the discussion of the method thread starter was suggesting and disputing why CJ's gold medal does not carry alot of weight in WC.

    ..and now after my clarifications, I hope we could return back to the topic of the thread?
     
  6. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    (this is my reasonings, not from freelast):
    - That's the reason why i asked in the first place, if indeed LCW suffered his back injury or spasms or whatever in the 3rd game, what is the explanation why Taufik could lead all the way in the 1st game? Certainly it's more than just players getting on and off form every now and then (or other external factors). And based on LCW's recent success vs. Taufik he could at least tied him at some point in the 1st game after the 0-0 score, no??..
    I am not disputing whether LCW had a back injury or not. I only see it as LCW played & finished a full 3 games match.:cool:
    ..anyway, you have your own reasonings and i have my own reasonings on freelast's view abt CJ being no.2 based on his WC title (which he kept that argument open). Let's wait for the official explanation by freelast, himself, on why he thought so..:cool:

    - To you and most others, incl. myself, LD is the best. But if you read a few of the posts, the posts suggest and question whether LD is the best even using the H2H record. Figure that one out..

    - Your post #241, abt the WR ranking and why LD doesn't have more WR rankings etc., has been somewhat discussed in the past & other threads..:cool:
     
    #246 ctjcad, Sep 28, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2010
  7. InvinKoh

    InvinKoh Regular Member

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    Ok let's get it clear, you mentioned that you didn't dispute LCW had a back injury during WC. But you also said you see it as LCW played & finished a full 3 games match.

    Let us recap on what you are saying by your 2 statements. Summarization of your statement:-
    LCW had a back injury during WC when facing TH. However, he have continued his game to played and finished a full 3 games and eventually he lost it.

    Verdict:-
    There is a very high possibility LCW lost his game towards TH due to his back injury. Supported with the fact that I pointed out that at one point TH just get continuous points all the way until end of game during game 3 (which was extremely obvious that something was not right).

    Impact to the thread discussion:-
    CJ indeed didn't outperformed himself as he was merely winning those players he's supposed to win. Supported with the fact that he did not meet LD/ LCW during his path to gold medal. Seriously, if I explained in such a way is still not clear enough for anyone to understand. I give up on explaining!
     
    #247 InvinKoh, Sep 28, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2010
  8. pBmMalaysia

    pBmMalaysia Regular Member

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    correct me if i am wrong, i don't think lcw ever lost a match this way in his entire playing career


    we understand but we don't know this time he understand or not
     
  9. InvinKoh

    InvinKoh Regular Member

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    Don't conclude too fast. People probably able to find out some records where he was a junior/ backup player which he lost his match in a straight point =p
     
  10. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    I am just surprised that we ordinary BCers wish to challenge the method used by BWF

    .
    From what I see, the thread starter is not happy with the current method of World Ranking.

    It was thought that H2H results can be a better method to rank players. However, after all our discussions made thus far, it can be found that H2H results have problems too.

    Personally, I would just follow how BWF ranks our players. BWF office bearers are mostly consisting of past experienced international players. Their formula for how to rank players must have been discussed thoroughly.

    I am just surprised that we ordinary BCers are wanting to challenge the method used by BWF.
    .
     
  11. drifit

    drifit newbie

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    i just want a second serve, same as tennis.
     
  12. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Not thread starter. The way it's panned out, more like fire-starter! :D
    What you need here is some very cold water. :eek::):)
     
  13. pBmMalaysia

    pBmMalaysia Regular Member

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    wha..lau somebody wants to challenge bwf lol :crying:

    yeah better stick to world ranking and use h2h for gambling..hehehe :D

    as for who are the best h2h players let it be the bwf top 5 players

    all 5 all mixed up in a juice blender and anyone can blend his or her own 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th ;)
     
  14. OneToughBirdie

    OneToughBirdie Regular Member

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    Just 2...I need 15 points up front and 3 service serve playing Aspire and guru PbM.
     
  15. Aspire

    Aspire Regular Member

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    Dont pull my leg lah. Let pBm do the work and will I chair the match (with some side betting) and call all the decisions againts you.:p
     
    #255 Aspire, Sep 28, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2010
  16. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    ..actually my point was, as i've already mentioned, based on LCW's H2H record and recent success against Taufik, he should've won against TH in straight games (he has no reason not to since his supposed back injury showed up in the 3rd game, not 1st and/or 2nd games; he won straight games, there's no need to play 3 games); or at the least, he should've made the 1st game scoreline much closer just like how LD made it close in the 1st game of his match vs. LCW in this yr's JO (based on LD's H2H and recent record vs. LCW).
    And let's give credit to where they belong and not take away CJ's WC win just because he didn't meet LD and/or LCW. Give credit to Taufik for showing up and winning against LCW. And give credit to PG for showing up and battling CJ in 3 games.

    Anyway, we've gone enough. As i already mentioned, you have your own reasonings and i have my own reasonings on freelast's view abt CJ being no.2 based on his WC title (which he kept that argument open). Let's wait for the official explanation by freelast, himself, on why he thought so:cool:
     
    #256 ctjcad, Sep 28, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2010
  17. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    If you are not happy with BWF, ......

    .
    Hi drifit, if you are not happy with how BWF governs/regulates the way we play Badminton, you can always introduce your own set of rules; And call it the new DBF (Drifit's Badminton Federation) system. ;););)
    .
     
  18. pBmMalaysia

    pBmMalaysia Regular Member

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    that would be fun for all but if any members make fun of the new system,

    drifit can always use the dissappear button :D


    actually, not a bad idea especially for doubles like me, the old folks ;)

    bwf should give it a test first and see whether its acceptable ;)


    otb, if i read what you wrote properly, that is, you want to play with me partnering aspire :confused:

    oh boy, we don't mind losing but sure two versus one especially the one is you,

    we gonna have lots and lots of fun moving you around...:D:D

    the deal is on and it will be based on 15 sets :p

    if the above 2 'if's' do happen,

    lin dan will be

    done lin :p:D

    (amen) :eek:
     
  19. OneToughBirdie

    OneToughBirdie Regular Member

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    simple answer...TH played very well in WC10, he was there for all LCW shots and rattled LCW in that game. TH was the better player that night.
     
  20. OneToughBirdie

    OneToughBirdie Regular Member

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    I read somewhere Aspire played 5x a week, and the way he described his play, hmmmm, that is quite intimidating....as you coach nd run a 39 courts or something, I need 12 points and 3 service serves in the old 15-point system...one thing I am good at is my stamina, I am quite fit though and run and move quite fast...also, seeing all those videos of ZJH, LCW, TH abd LD, I can unleash my 'skills' at you 2, one at a time, I think I can get the 3 extra points.
     

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