NEW: Fixed Height Experiment for Service

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by CantSmashThis, Jan 10, 2013.

  1. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    That pic is photoshopped... because the laser should also show on the man.
     
  2. Tactim

    Tactim Regular Member

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    I’m mainly just trying to provide some debate for the “unpopular” opinion. I myself am not tall, 5 ft 9 inches. I suppose it comes down to: What is the BWF trying to achieve? With the rule change and you are right, they want to the service/receive situation clearly equal. But even if the rule is not meant to limit the advantage of taller players, the effect is same regardless of the BWF's intent.

    I compare this to tennis for example where the service is also a very important part of the game, in fact it’s probably a much more important part of the game than the serve in badminton because many times you can outright win a point with an ace or an unreturned serve. It is EXTREMELY unequal in those circumstances. Taller players with the right technique have a massive advantage in the serve situation. But then you also see at the top 15 of the rankings, it isn't filled with 6 ft 6 in to 6 ft 10 in players booming their serves. In badminton doubles, Kolding and Ivanov hold the 6th and 8th spot respectively, but marcus and kevin have dominated the season despite playing these players and have not lost to them despite being over a foot shorter.

    But forget the rule change for a moment, say we're just talking about service height in general, it's harsh to taller players to think "everything" is wrong with a tall player having an advantage in the serve situation. Before the current 1.15m serve height rule, one could say that the intent of the rules was that taller players could take advantage of their height and could scale upward depending on how tall the player was. For the players who are close to 2 meters and above in height, try to look at it from their perspective. They are already slower to change direction and cannot move as fast as someone shorter than they are, but now they are also losing their advantage to serve a flatter trajectory in doubles. The taller player's more powerful and steeper smash is most definitely a game changing tool, but as Marcus and Kevin have shown the game has transcended beyond that if you have the skills in other areas to match it.

    In the end if the serve rule does become widely implemented, players will adapt, tensions will fade with time and get used to the rule. I know I used tennis as an comparison example on how powerful servers and were tall had a big advantage, but even the ATP has curbed their advantage over time by changing the material with which the hardcourts are made of to take off more speed off the ball on contact so that the entire game isn't just aces and fast serves to promote more rallies. Even wimbledon has changed their grass in the last 15 years so that more rallies happen and matches are not as serve focused. That is now Rafael Nadal came to be so successful at Wimbledon, the change in the grass surface which complemented his rally style. So, the BWF most definitely is trying to influence the flow and pace of the doubles game with this trial period next year.
     
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  3. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    I don't know if your tennis example is a good one as it seems to me the serve was actually one thing that the game rules in tennis were very much criticized. I heard that there was even talk of changing the service rules in tennis next year as well, though I am not sure if it's true.

    Regarding the top players, the Indonesian pair is rather an exception as the sport is dominated by the tall players...

    You are saying that we are taking away the height advantage from the taller players. Do you realize that it is actually the other way? What we are seeing right now with current rules is that lower players forced into disadvantage by making them serve lower than others. Yes - we have a rule that actively makes lower players serve lower... Why would it be fair? There is nothing in the rules that would affect tall players in any way and the new rules proposed are not doing that... :) That is the whole point of the change - changing the rule so that it will not force some players into disadvantage.
     
  4. Tactim

    Tactim Regular Member

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    Not sure about the criticism in the game rules in tennis you're talking about unless you're referring to what I spoke about how there was a period where tennis serves and aces were completely dominating the game. If you were, then it was already addressed via changing the composition of the surfaces they played on to slow the game down and favor longer rallies. The only thing that's up for change in regards of service rules is about how if the serve hits the net but lands in the service box, the ball is fair play (usually they just redo the serve whereas badminton plays off those shuttles). So yes, you are right they are trying to change the service rules. In addition they are going to try enforcing a 25 second rule between points to avoid people taking too long to get ready (badminton sometimes has those issues as well).

    I suppose the definition of "tall players" is a bit subjective. I think of tall players as Vladimir Ivanov and Mads Pieler Kolding who are 6ft 7 in. and 6ft 9 in. respectively. Even victor Axelsen at 6ft 4in. could even fit in there, but since he's a singles player the serve rule would not affect him nearly as much as the other two. Most of the top men's doubles players vary from 5ft 9 in to 6 ft 2in., which I would consider the average, almost "optimal" height range for the sport.

    The point about the current rules forcing lower players into a disadvantage isn't wrong. The current rules definitely do favor the taller player purely in the serve situation. To be honest, the only people the 1.15m rule majorly affects are the players i mentioned above. It would be interesting to see exactly where 1.15m is on their bodies and to see what kind of adjustments they must make for the serve because the video which victor axelsen and Mads Kolding made was purely for comedy, and were not true representations of what a 1.15m serve would look like. . We should all take some measuring tape and see where 1.15m is all our own bodies too, I'm quite curious.
     
  5. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    The tennis guys are currently planning to change a lot more than a simple limit of service height. See my post a couple of pages back:
     
  6. thyrif

    thyrif Regular Member

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    I bet you're fun at parties :p
    (correct, though)

    How about a smoke machine as well?
     
  7. event

    event Regular Member

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    Maybe not, but nor is there even a single player in the top 10 who is under 6-feet, whereas in badminton, 8 of the MS top 10 are under 6-feet. In men's doubles, 8 players of the 20 in the top 10 are under 6 feet and just 2 years ago, they were a majority.
    I'm sure that's because there is no rule against the shorter players trying to jump higher to diminish that advantage. Axelsen's comment that one doesn't lower the rim for shorter basketball players is a straw man argument. A better analogy would be that Spud Webb and Michael Jordan were both limited to jumping 35" off the floor. Jordan would still have been able to dunk and block lots of shots, while Webb would have looked like me.
     
  8. CantSmashThis

    CantSmashThis Regular Member

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    So it seems that they would be getting rid of the shaft needing to point down as well, so as long as you're under 1.15m, your shaft can be pointing upwards.
     
  9. Yoji

    Yoji Regular Member

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    I think Men's Double is the sector most affected by this..But like Kevin/Gideon have shown you can win serving from1.05-1.10 so makes no difference if tall players serve 10cm lower.

    Women's Double can just lift without getting being hardsmash..so meahhh wont be so affected and not many tall players like Men anyway.

    Singles can do what they want.
     
  10. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    Where did you get that from? From all that is published yet, there is no indication that the head pointing downwards rule will be canceled.
     
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  11. SSSSNT

    SSSSNT Regular Member

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    I haven't heard it too although it makes sense that with a fixed height there's no need for that rule anymore.
     
  12. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    There’s plenty of need for it lol
     
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  13. SSSSNT

    SSSSNT Regular Member

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    example?
     
  14. Tactim

    Tactim Regular Member

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    Unless you prefer having a drive serve to your face every time even more powerful than before without the racket head facing downward.
     
  15. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    Drives top, top spin
     
  16. CantSmashThis

    CantSmashThis Regular Member

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    https://www.teamusa.org/-/media/USA...hash=686693D6350BE506110786627800B8D140DD17D9

    And in a letter from BWF to Technical Officials also stated:

     That Law 9.1.6 be changed to read: “the whole shuttle shall be below 1.15
    metres from the surface of the court at the instant of being hit by the server’s
    racket.”
     That the current Law 9.1.7 (i.e. “the shaft and the racket head of the server’s
    racket at the instant of hitting the shuttle shall be pointing in a downward
    direction”) would become an alternative service law.
     
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  17. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    who will be the first person here to tattoo a line on your belly that is exactly 1.15m?
     
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  18. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    Careful, that line will be lower and lower with time passing... :D
     
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  19. nokh88

    nokh88 Regular Member

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    But for some the 1.15m height is on the "reproductive organs". Can this player show the tattoo line?
     
  20. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    Now what should "alternative service law" mean in here? Can you choose between the two rules now or what? :confused:

    IMO the racket pointing downward rule has a completely different objective than the service height part of the rules. As explained, I'd rather not like to have my opponents shooting forehand overhand drive serves at me.
     
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