NEW: Fixed Height Experiment for Service

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by CantSmashThis, Jan 10, 2013.

  1. V1lau

    V1lau Regular Member

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    The word "obvious" in this context means it's the responsibility of the player to demonstrate that the server's actions are closer to the rules and not straddling the lines of the legality like we currently have.

    For example: you would have to serve below the top of the net to achieve an upward trajectory and if the flight is close to level or level, than that would be a fault. So the word obvious would force you to serve somewhere at the middle of the net level to keep within the rules. Which I think is better than trying to determine the last rib of someone's body.
     
  2. V1lau

    V1lau Regular Member

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    I already deal with that kind of serve already in club matches. The racket having to be in a obvious downward angle should help with this as the only people I know who do this serve, serve with the racket sideways. I think it is much harder to do effectively with the racket pointed down, but i don't serve like that so I maybe wrong about that.

    I don't know how the serves would look like without the waist rule in place, but it feels like some players already serve like their isn't a waist rule now, I think it will takes away the constraint on the people who at the moment serve properly and the advantage of those who don't serve properly.
     
  3. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    I still think my idea of crop tops ie half shirts would be best at allowing the service judge to better estimate the lowest rib. And it'd definitely draw more viewership in line with BWF's plans. :D
     
  4. V1lau

    V1lau Regular Member

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    I think creative teams will find a way to craft a top that distorts the location of the lowest rib higher. But if the idea works, I am not against it but I think a lot of weekend tournament players wouldn't like it, if adopted at the lower levels.
     
  5. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    And you think that that is easy to 'enforce with any kind of consistency' (your words)? No, you've just replaced one hard-to-judge rule that is at least based around a non-subjective fact (height of lowest rib) with a totally subjective rule. You've suggested something objectively worse!

    "whoosh"
     
    #105 amleto, Aug 19, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013
  6. V1lau

    V1lau Regular Member

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    The height of the lowest rib on an individual is not subjective, but the line judges don't go out and physically exam each individual to see objectively where their bottom ribs are, do they? So the determination of the lowest rib is subjective to the perception and experience of each service judge.

    Secondly I think you are reading the rules without taking into consideration what I have said about the service action and reason the word "obvious" was injected into it.

    In principal as long as you serve somewhere below the top of the net, you have already accomplished the first rule I laid out which was "to serve in a upward trajectory", can we agree to this?

    The language "obvious" is subjective I concede that point, but its usage is necessary because it puts the responsibility on the server to serve farther down from the top of the net to create an "obvious" upward trajectory of the bird. The language was included to make player stay closer to the rules, rather than skirting the rule's edges of an subjective determination (location of the lowest rib) like we have today, which is why it looks like a lot of player's lowest rib is somewhere near the bottom of their chest, especially when you don't have service judges!

    So I think that it's much easier to objectively determine the serve point relative to the top of the net, than it is to determine objectively the position of the lowest rib relative to the serve point.




    "Swish"
     
  7. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    hAHA did you just "swish" amleto?

    Look "obvious" is not even vaguely measurable so it is a non starter. You have not proposed a followable rule here just an idea of how you would like to see service go down. If I see a shuttle being hit 1 degree up I think that is obviously going up. Others wouldn't consider it untill say 25 degrees up. Same with the racket pointing downwards.

    If you are saying the rule should be serve anywhere below the tape, in an upward direction with the racket pointing in a downwards direction fair enough.
     
  8. BBEdrummerAK

    BBEdrummerAK Regular Member

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    This is very interesting! I was not aware of this. I have been serving the same way forever now, and it probably won't change. I mean, I just do club play, along with some local (and currently extremely) small time tournaments. I always keep part of the head just below my waist upon service, and have had little issues with getting a good low serve over. *shrug* But still, the way some players kinda push that envelope and seemingly bring that racket up to almost mid chest when they hit the bird, ESPECIALLY like Mohammad Ahsan in that World Championships MD final!! And got called out on multiple times..haha.
     
  9. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    Do I get to "whoosh" this? Is that allowed? :D
     
  10. CantSmashThis

    CantSmashThis Regular Member

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    Lowest rib on every person is where your elbow is when having arms fully extended down at your sides. It's the same as everyone, and every experienced umpire should know this.
     
  11. V1lau

    V1lau Regular Member

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    That is exactly what I am saying.

    If you are able to differentiate between 1 degree up (not a fault) and 0 degree flat (fault) and the serve is 1 degree up then don't call a fault. But I suspect most service judges would be unable to discern that difference and that is where "obvious" comes into play. It is up to the player to perform a service that a service judge would have no problem deciding if the service is going up (not a fault) and flat (fault).

    I am assuming that placing the player with the responsibility of demonstrating the service trajectory to be going up will put a constraint on how high they can serve and pressure to serve lower, so as not to be faulted. I am also assuming that the difference between a service trajectory clearly going up or flat is not insignificant, but without looking a pictures services at 0,1,2,3 ..nth degree, we would just be speculating.
     
  12. V1lau

    V1lau Regular Member

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    I allow you to "whoosh", enjoy! :eek:
     
  13. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    I don't think this is a good way to do it, but just for arguments sake, if what I said:
    "If you are saying the rule should be serve anywhere below the tape, in an upward direction with the racket pointing in a downwards direction fair enough."
    Is exactly what your saying, then I can tell you it is impossible to not hit the shuttle upwards without it going into the net. So you wouldn't have to judge 1 degree etc, if he made contact below the tape even a mm and the shuttle goes over it has gone upwards that would be obvious to anyone.
     
    #113 craigandy, Aug 19, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013
  14. V1lau

    V1lau Regular Member

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    If a player is serving 1mm below the tape, can a service judge tell the difference from a service from 0mm or 1mm below the tape at a glance? I would argue the answer to that question is no, if you think the answer is yes then we are at an impasse and we would have to do some science to find out the answer which is probably not going to happen.

    In your example of 1mm, if I am right and the service judge can not tell the difference between serving 1mm below or at 0mm then the server would be faulted.
     
  15. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    v1au, I think you are forgetting how umpiring/judging works! You set the rule in 'stone cold facts', and then let the umpire decide.

    Do you think line judges can 'see' a shuttle contacted 1mm on the edge of the line, or 1mm out? No. But they make a judgement.
     
  16. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    I have no idea what you are driving at. If you want them to serve "obviously" lower than for example the net tape and not push that boundary at all, why not just say, "my idea is for them to serve for example 45cm down from the top of the net tape." This way you would have made a followable rule rather than just a vague idea. So 45 cm from top tape that would be everybody serving from the same place 1.1m from the ground, is that your idea:D
     
  17. V1lau

    V1lau Regular Member

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    I agree with the hypothesis but I don't believe the implementation will be a successful theory. What if the serve is 45.1cm or 45.5cm, will those be a fault? How will you determine the exact height of the contact point that can change between breathes of the server?

    The difference between my proposal and yours is that you are requiring the service judge to make precise distinctions and measurements like 45cm(legal) and 45.1(fault), which I believe is impossible. My proposal, the server has the obligation to demonstrate clearly that the serve is going up, to the satisfaction of the service judge, I believe that distinction is much easier to determine than yours.

    In your proposal I bet servers will still get faulted for serves at 45cm and (+/- an amount of cm) above and below 45cm, which will lead to the same confusion and frustration we have today with the lower rib determination. My proposal, the onus is entirely on the player which put pressure on the server to serve lower since in the language I've used, it makes any serve close to the top a fault.
     
  18. V1lau

    V1lau Regular Member

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    Rule: Serve must be hit in an obvious or clearly(meaning onus on server to demonstrate) upward trajectory, Agreed?

    Stone cold facts: Easily identifiable, Serve point and Top of the net, Agreed?
    Serve can either go up, flat or down, Agreed?

    Umpire decide: Did I see the bird go up? If so, then good! If no, fault! Was it close, fault. Agreed?

    Pls kindly let me know which step I am forgetting? thx

    Why does the BWF and players all want instant reply on line calls again? O' yeah:rolleyes:, because human are not reliable instruments in making minute distinctions and subject to optical illusions. But human are good at making larger distinctions like if the bird hit the middle of the line or inside the line!
     
  19. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    v1au, give it up already, you are talking non sense.
     
    #119 amleto, Aug 20, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013
  20. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    No! I won't ever agree to a 'rule' that depends entirely on what the judge ate for breakfast last Tuesday. What the hell does 'close' mean? All that does is move the decision point away from up/down to some fuzzy 'was it obviously up'. It's utter garbage. There is a reason you do not find stupid rules like you have suggested more often in the laws of sport.

    Going by your logic, let's change all the baseball calls to 'the player must demonstrate he is 'obviously safe'. The pitcher must demonstrate the pitch is 'obviously' in the zone. The striker must kick the ball so that it 'obviously' crosses the line. Shall I go on? Or do you see how ludicrous this is? I shall venture that you don't, and admit to defeat - my patience is worn out.
     
    #120 amleto, Aug 20, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2013

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