Personnal progression asking for advices

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by SimonCarter, Jan 3, 2019.

  1. SimonCarter

    SimonCarter Regular Member

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    I am switching from high serve forehand to low serve backhand every tournament actually. The reason being that neither are great so when I lose it is a big part of me losing. Instead of working on it I keep switching between the two.
    I will definitely try to stick to forehand high serve and practice it.
     
  2. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    Yes, I do! And I'll be eternally grateful.
     
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  3. Rob3rt

    Rob3rt Regular Member

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    It also depends on the opponent. I'm using the low serve against aggressive players with power smashes and great rear court play and the high serve for deceptive players that perfectly return the low serve every time in a way that puts me under pressure. Flick serve against slow opponents.
     
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  4. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    This is it. Use whichever serve is helping you to start the rally (at least safely, maybe with some advantage). The real topic we are debating here is "what should your normal go to serve be, assuming that any of the options are viable in the first place.
     
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  5. SimonCarter

    SimonCarter Regular Member

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    The thing being that right now none of my option are really safe.
    Correct me if I'm wrong but I do not feel to threatened in my last video when I serve a short backhand. What was terrible is my attempt at flick serves which went horribly wrong. I might not have win one point when flick serving.
     
  6. rulebavaria

    rulebavaria Regular Member

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    I have taken a look at the video to see if your perception is right.

    Out of your 8 first short backhand serves you have won the rally 0 times.

    Out of your 8 first flick serves you have won the rally 3 times.

    So your perception seems wrong. Though i have not finished the video. Overall you won the rally only 3 times out of your 16 first serves (no long forehand serve).

    Your opponent is definetely not more skillfull than you as far as I can judge as a beginner. I guess you should take a page out of his book and work on your long serve (good length and central) to start the rallies in a better position.
     
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  7. SimonCarter

    SimonCarter Regular Member

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    Thanks for your analysis. I am indeed practicing long forehand serve. I am getting better but it is still not as accurate as I want.
    I have noticed that I did not look at the target at all. Correcting that helped a lot without surprise. Focusing on the shuttle until I hit it also greatly helped.
    I feel like I am on the right path that feel good!
     
  8. Borkya

    Borkya Regular Member

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    I'm certainly not apologetic or embarrassed about being a women! :D It's important to remember that these forums are archived and show up on google results so while we are discussing one persons question/issue, many people in similar situations will possibly read this in the future. And it's good to know where someone is coming from. After all, a 50 year old man will have different thoughts and tactics then a 20 years old guy. Same as with guys and girls, as we also have different tactics and styles for certain moves and it is good to know what someone is talking about. And since women's singles serves came up (brought up by someones else) I was curious about the difference in serves between men and women since I didn't think serves differed between the sexes.

    I think all genders, races and ages of players should not only offer their input thoughts and feelings, and should be respected for them. Like you said, we all have different experiences so other people's input is valuable to other people. You don't have to like me, but neither should I be berated for asking a question about women's style of serves or bringing up women's issues. I will certainly start a thread if there is a specific issue for women I want to discuss, but I do hope that men and women of all ages feel free to comment on all threads and will be made to feel more welcome to share their opinion that you have made me feel.

    Thanks @MSeeley and @DarkHiatus for the clarification! Although in women's singles (and the way my coach teaches me) is often to start holding the shuttle up very high, like at the forehead level. But in the above coaching video about a high serve he is holding it at chest level and someone else said they found starting it at forehead level uncomfortable.

    So what is the advantages/disadvantages of starting holding the shuttle higher or lower for a high serve in singles?
     
  9. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    To be perfectly honest I don't know of a reason for holding it chest high versus head high versus above the head. My immediate impression is that it is simply the way the coach was probably taught, and hence they are passing it on.

    Within WS players, you have some players that hold it about head height but i've also seen some players that hold it extremely high above the head. In the same way you have some players that seem to more obviously drop the shuttle versus those that "throw it" a little more.

    My inclination here is that the coaches in both cases are just teaching what they have probably experienced to be a good method for teaching someone the shot - by that I mean that the cues they use are consistently followed by most students to produce good results. It could also be the case that all players are taught with the same cues but their technique shifts to be more comfortable for them as they practice for many many years.

    Of course, there will be students that will need to be taught differently: some players may find it uncomfortable to hold the shuttle that high, others may find it easier to give themselves more time by holding it higher etc etc. The height you hold the shuttle doesn't really matter to the degree it doesn't effect the racket swing. Obviously if you don't give yourself enough time to play the shot then holding it higher would be beneficial, but you could probably achieve the same shot even with a very low shuttle hold below chest height - you'd have to be quicker to swing and may be more difficult to time for a beginner.

    That's what I reckon anyway - head height is probably just a useful cue to get people to do it well, even though the cue isn't that significant. If I taught you to hold the shuttle at head height, and you specifically asked the question about how high to hold it and I told you head height... that doesn't even mean that other heights are wrong. I am simply attempting to give you what you need (clarity, certainty, good technique etc) in a way that has been proven to help most people.
     
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  10. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Starting high is a cue, where most people find it easier to a) get a good rhythm and b) keep a relatively long non-racket arm. What I found out to work for me is to start around forehead height, then start the movement relatively slow and really speed up when I release the shuttle. I get the best consistency with a very long racket arm and an almost full swing, going very high with the serve. Rather experiment with the timing and where you drop the shuttle than trying to control the length with how hard you hit the serve, it'll be much more consistent that way. That also has the advantage of the shuttle dropping more steeply, thus forcing my opponent to take it further back than on a flatter serve. Going out to the side has several advantages as well, one being a simple geometric one - variation in your shot length will have less impact on the depth of the shot (i.e. how far from the base line it drops) than on a straight shot, one reason why I liked to lift crosscourt under pressure.

    If you want to watch someone to mimic a good forehand serve, I'd recommend Nozumi Okuhara. Very consistent, and you'll see many of the cues I use as well (high shuttle carriage, long racket arm, full swing).
     
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  11. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    To be fair, there are male members on here who are far more obsessed with male players than you, and worship them to a concerning degree. I wouldn't assume gender based on anything like that... :D
     
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  12. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    You should be able to hit 3 corners fairly reliably on the style of serve you want to use (with about a foot in diameter). If you can hit 4, great, if you can expand that to 6 (middle of front and back) then that also helps.

    You can’t just have one serve. People will learn it and attack it. Need to have some variety. If you prefer forehand serves, make sure you can serve short well with it too. I find rolling the racket (pronating) over the shuttle as I hit works well for short forehands.
     
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  13. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Funnily enough, I prefer the exact opposite - cutting/slicing by continuing the supination (I supinate, then pronate during the high service motion) :D One of our players has a really uncomfortable forehand serve where she pronates over it as well, it's a crazy crosscourt angle when she's serving from the even side.
     
  14. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    You can put a ton of spin on the shuttle, makes it travel quite fast. But yeah, if you prefer forehand serve, I would say 2 back corners and a front, and the opposite for backhand. Especially at lower levels, flicking to the centre line can really catch people out.

    The more spots you can hit reliably the better. When your opponent starts going deep to wait for your high serve, bring out the low forehand. Make them work, keep them guessing.
     
  15. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    How high to hold the shuttle for high serves may not be very important. When explaining the mechanics, it seems coaches (that I could understand) emphasize other details, such as hip rotation, out more to forehand etc. I'd model after a prominent singles player. Here're 3:

    1. Peter Gade:

    Note how far forward his serving position is.
    2. A Chinese World Champion (best if you could understand Mandarin):

    3. Lianying Zhang - coach of a number of great Danish Singles players


    I'd also like to add that if you play tournaments, you would also want to practice the lower variations. This is not just from tactical but also from pragmatic considerations. You may find not all venues have high standard high enough ceilings for your now well-practiced high serves.
     
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  16. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Ceiling height must be over 8m here to qualify as a venue even for the lowest league iirc (or maybe it was 5m). Never played somewhere I couldn't serve at least decently high, not that I usually serve forehand
     
  17. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    Yeah, service height is understated. Players seem to think that because it's landing at the back tramlines, it's good enough, but their serves are too low to be a good high serve. Means their opponents can catch the cork of the shuttle directly for a smash.

    If you high serve, it needs to be high enough that the shuttle drops nearly vertically.
     
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  18. SimonCarter

    SimonCarter Regular Member

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    Thanks for all resources and notes.
    I am pretty sure that all competition here have high enough ceiling for good high serve.

    For the shirt forehand serve I am more of a slicing guy. I do not know what is best but I definitely have better results like that.
     
  19. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    8m, maybe. 5m is perhaps too low. My current is 30 ft tall (or 9+m).
     
  20. SimonCarter

    SimonCarter Regular Member

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    Hey guys !
    Thanks again for the advices I am having very good results with high forehand serve and I am feeling way more balanced and fast standing lower. Went to three tournaments back to back and lost in final, won the next one and lost in 1/4 in a higher level one.

    I feel like I have improved a lot since I posted the first video and all your thoughts were a good part of it.

    I am looking forward posting a new video against a good/very good opponent but I am lacking opportunities for now. I do not feel like filming myself at tournament.

    Another point that was not shown here is my resilience to the effort. I am not able to maintain my top level for five to six matches a day. Working on that helped me perform (I am now regularly doing footwork exercise, squats and jumps and it helped a lot, I am following all the speCulatius jumps hehe)
     
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