Physical Fitness Won the Thomas Cup

Discussion in 'Thomas Cup / Uber Cup 2006' started by X Ball, May 7, 2006.

  1. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    I noticed that under new scoring older players can be beaten in two fast sets played at a furious pace eg. Lin Dan-Gade, the older player just weakens in the closing stages.The magic is 2sets at the same pace!.
    Others play fast, slow fast over 3 sets.
    I missed the KKK/Chan CM match with old Danes I bet it was fast slow fast until the Danes were worn out at set 3.

    Maybe China, Malaysia has learnt how to cope with the new system.
     
  2. EastDevil

    EastDevil Regular Member

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    Lin Dan is like those high-tech pillows that moulds according to your head when you sleep. He adjusts himself to suit the opponent he is playing. He seldom "overwork" himself too much probably giving the impression that he is always struggling even against minnows. That's what made him fantastic because he can switch gears when needed.
     
  3. EastDevil

    EastDevil Regular Member

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    I find that Hafiz has a lot more potential than KBH. All he need is to do 10km runs a couple times a week to train stamina and do sky jumps every week to train his nerves. ha ha :D
     
  4. chibe_K

    chibe_K Regular Member

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    Another observation, the new 21 points system works well for aggressive player who attacks. Traditional defensive style like Han Jian or Misbun does not suit the new scoring system well. Mal needs to adapt to change and switch to attacking play instead of defensive.
     
  5. Chai

    Chai Regular Member

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    Considering this, if you know you opponent who is physically capable of performing 42 winning smashes from the baseline and after that he will be tired and making the errors, what will be your strategy? Assuming you could not deny him from smashing.

    In the 3x15 tactically on the paper you could do one thing, restricting and luring him to use his smashes while you are serving; so he might win 42 right to serve but you have taken out his winning shot!

    In the 3x21 you will not able to use the same tactic as he will win 42 points and the game!

    What could you do? Could you try the classic tactic of Han Jian vs Liam Swee King on the 3x21?

    Now I really believe why 42 is the answer!
     
  6. baddiebadder

    baddiebadder New Member

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    go go go china!!! i cant believe people nowadays have to more fit than before to win a badminton cup! everyone is so tough. even when they're sweating like its raining they keep playing on. it seems like badminton requires more fitness than tactics. (or does it?) go china!! they rock
     
  7. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    If physical fitness won the 2006 Thomas Cup, which was played with the supposedly less stamina-sapping new scoring system, then what won previous Thomas Cup matches that were played under the even more stamina-demanding old system?
     
  8. Iwan

    Iwan Regular Member

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    It's a different thing all together. The game is physically more demanding in different ways. Previously it was demanding because matches were long. But because matches were long, people didn't fire out their gun every single chance they had. They had to save their bullets for the right moments. However this game is not just about guns and bullets, inbetween each rally is some resting time, with the old system, you can fire your gun endlessly for two or three rallies and then play it safe for the next one or two or so.

    This time, everyone is firing their gun at every single chance they have. There is no such thing as a rally where you can just throw away to rest your gun a bit. That is demanding in its own way, it is obvious that people who are fitter get to benefit as they can fire more rounds within a rally and also their recovery would more or less be faster than those who are less fit.

    Note that when doing gym, it is adviced to take a one minute rest in between each set to allow your muscles to recover the energy it needs to do the next set. Here's an interesting example: A person who bench presses 100kg for 10 repetition a set only needs exactly one minute of rest as well before he can do the next set of 100kg for 8 or 9 repetition as a person who bench presses 30kg for 10 repetition a set.
     
    #28 Iwan, May 8, 2006
    Last edited: May 8, 2006
  9. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    -------------------------------------------

    Does it imply then that the 21 point system still requires a high level of fitness of the intense sort though?

    To me the games on TV are more exciting .

    I am still playing old system in private though as

    I can get a better work-out to suit my needs.
     
  10. Iwan

    Iwan Regular Member

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    For the professionals whose aims are to win, yes. That's because they can adopt to the best way to win a 21 point system game that is to play fast and furious. But for casual players who wont change their game style to suit the best way to win a 21 point system game, it will be less intense.
     
  11. X Ball

    X Ball Regular Member

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    Look at Bao Chun Lai and Lin Dan - with their fitness, they kept smashing to win fast.

    Hafiz and Beng Hong slowed badly, even during the first game. They can tell their fitness would not carry them and started playing trick shots to slow the pace but these shots would never fool the top opponents --- Hafiz almost always gave the next shot away after winning one because the trick shot got killed or it did not work.
     
  12. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

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    As a world class player, you are expected to be physically fit, otherwise you will not have a chance to remain there for long.

    Yes, because of the brevity of the new scoring system, any chance to attack should not be missed. But players are human beings and they can't be expected to mount attack after attack without taking a rest, no matter how fit they are. Otherwise, a very fit player like Lin Dan will be able to continue doing so and win every game with only a few points scored by his rivals. And probably the lost points were due to his own mistakes, the so-called unforced errors. Even a machine can break down sometimes. But Lin Dan has lost some games to lesser known opponents and his match against Peter Gade in the TC finals could go either way. Why was this so?

    As I have said, physical fitness to a world class player is a given. If you don't have that, you shouldn't be there. Lin Dan had something extra on that special day when he met Peter. He could smash well, so could Peter. He could move around the court easily, so could Peter. His execution of skills was good, so was Peter's.

    Maybe Lin's mental strength at the crucial moments was slightly better and this helped him to secure victory. Not that Peter's mental strength is deficient, just that the two combatants' minds work differently at any particular point in time. Although in his interview, Lin claimed he had more ways to defeat Peter and it did appear that Lin anticipated Peter's shots quite well. What I'm trying to say is that the difference between success and failure for them was very marginal and the final outcome could equally apply to either one.

    Yes, you need to be physically fit to play good badminton at any meaningful level and more so at world class level. But physical fitness is only one important ingredient, there are other aspects to consdier if you want to win at the world stage. To me, it is much easier to attain physical fitness. :D
     
  13. Iwan

    Iwan Regular Member

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    Yes ofcourse all other ingredients shouldn't be discounted for. Definetely Lin Dan can't fire his gun all the time, but he can definetely fire it more often than Peter Gade who has to take care of his knee and aging body. This is definetely physical fitness. If we take back the Peter Gade that was before his knee injury, I believe we will see a very worried Lin Dan and Taufik today. This is the extent of physical fitness. Game play wise, I believe Peter Gade is much better today as he has more experience.

    Is it much easier to attain physical fitness? Nope, I've been there and tried that. And I can tell you that it is so hard, that it is one of the reason why Singaporeans cant break through. It is so hard, that it requires you to have patience, discipline and perseverance during depressing times that u feel like just giving up all together. It is so hard, that undisciplined people are simply 'lazy' to keep on doing it over a long period of time. One of the greatest temptation in life, is actually to allow the body to be cozy. To be physically fit in Lin Dan's standard, you're fighting this temptation right down to the very last drop of blood to get to there, maintenance is another issue.

    I trained a boy before, a Singaporean boy, who gave up his studies to train for badminton. Did some drilling with him for two hours, still fit at the end of it. Then came his physical training session, made him do a 20 minute running exercise where he has to go all out for one minute with sprinting forward, backward, sideward, scissors leg, hopping forward and backward diagonally and then resting for 45 seconds to recover only to repeat the same one minute exercise again. At the end of it, he was too tired to continue, he still had one more menu of physical training that he was supposed to do within 15 minutes. He was allowed to rest for two hours before going on to play a game at Chong Pang, he said he wants to go home already to rest and sleep. It is not easy. With respect to this boy's determination, half a year ago, he would get cramps after one hour of drilling. He improved immensely within half a year, but his determination, perseverance, discipline and everything else, is not yet enough. It is expected that he would at least go through that last 15 minutes of physical training. In the club where I trained a few years ago in Indonesia, people would scramble to get their rackets just to play a game. And this is after 3 hour+ of physical training and drilling.

    I have friends who've been through army camp before, marched long distance with 20kg worth of equipment, and fell asleep within 5 minutes due to total body exhaustion at the end of the day. That's what need to happen to badminton professionals 4 days a week during their intensive physical training period. But it doesn't always go that way.
     
    #33 Iwan, May 8, 2006
    Last edited: May 8, 2006
  14. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Despite the close scores Peter Gade really did not have any chance of beating Lin Dan in the Thomas Cup Final. The key to Lin Dan's win was his net control, which forced Peter to lift often. This repeatedly became the 'kiss of death' for Peter with Lin Dan's superlative smashes even from awkward positions. True, Peter did the same thing except that Peter's net play was not as sharp and his smashes were not as powerful or were not taken from impossible positions that the acrobatic Lin Dan did with ease.
    Bao CL played a similar game as Lin Dan's with great patience, control, and then a wristy, deceptive, almost effortless smash that more than make up for its lack of Lin Dan-type power. I think Bao CL's effortless smashes, although less powerful, are the most difficult to return because they are hard to read.
     
  15. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

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    Nothing comes easy, yet nothing is impossible! Why is Lin Dan world no.1 and many other equally talented world class players still lagged behind?

    Lin Dan must have something special, something different, something others may probably be reluctant to do. Putting in hard work in a smart way, developing one's other faculties, especially the mental and not just the physical at his level may just be the answer. Having a coach who understands his needs and capabilities intimately and who can help him develop to his fullest potential, a supercoach who can motivate Lin to achieve his objectives and capture success after success!

    I have said every player is different, so it is up to the coach to learn more about his disciple before he can help him. A coach cannot apply the same method for every trainee and he should not compare himself with those under his charge nor with one trainee with another. He should not shout "If Jack and June can do it, why can't you?" He must constantly bear in mind that his trainees are special and different. Instead a good coach should find out what motivates a player to do his tasks willingly and in the right amount.

    That's why I said achieving physical fitness is easier than the psychological and mental aspects like discipline, self-motivation, commitment, etc. ;)
     
  16. X Ball

    X Ball Regular Member

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    Lin Dan's specialty is his jumping smashes straight down the line or right across court. I noticed Bai executed some clever smashes without jumping -- and these caught the opponents by surprise (it is an additional advantage). Apart from that, they both execute smashes at every opportunity - I don't see them faking smashes. When they jump to smash, it is always a winner (and a point in the 21pt system). LCW is beginning to show resemblance of Lin Dan -- with his booming smashes.

    Against Peter Gade, the other day, PG kept it low and took away LCW's chances of smashing. However, against Lin Dan, he was forced to play the high shot to Lin Dan because Lin Dan played a lot of good net shots, which PG to retrieve and return high. LCW must learn that Lin Dan's skill to force an opponent to return high such that he can execute his lightning smashes.
     
  17. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    I would think Lin Dan and Bao CL have very different types of smashing. Lin Dan is pure power, from more positions than anyone else. However, Bao's smash is like no other, almost like in slow motion. As a matter of fact there are no current players who smash like Bao-you don't know where he is going to place the shuttle with his smash until it is too late. The only other player who smashed like Bao was the Indonesian Arbi Haryanto (1995 World Champion), who completely mesmerised Malaysia's Rashid Sidek with his Bao-like smashes. But Arbi did not have Bao's all round game nor his control to set up for a kill.
     
  18. X Ball

    X Ball Regular Member

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    Yes I concur. He 'hides' his smashes well and he is reasonably quick for a guy that tall. Malaysia is going to have a hard time against this guy in the future.
     
  19. Iwan

    Iwan Regular Member

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    Achieving physical fitness the standard of the top professionals is impossible without discipline, determination and perseverance. Don't believe me? Check out the Singaporean players:

    Just before the Commonwealth Games in Melbourne, a team of Indonesian players came to sparr with the Singaporeans. During this time, Kendrick Lee lost to a little boy named Alamsyah. Alamsyah was not more than 170cm in height, and probably doesnt even pack more than 60kg in total. Yet he beat and outran Kendrick Lee in a three set match winning the first and the third. Where's the logic in that? We've got an unknown player winning against Kendrick Lee.

    We don't have to see this match to know that Kendrick Lee is seriously lacking in speed. And even while playing at a slow pace compared to players with the likes of Lin Dan and Taufik, he gets pumped out playing against Alamsyah. Who happens to be shorter than him, having worse reach length. If attaining physical fitness is as easy as you think it is, Kendrick Lee wouldn't be in such a form. Or maybe the Indonesian coaches are to blame? Not giving him some secret Indonesian physical training program?

    Achieving physical fitness is not as easy as you think it is. When you're tied at match point 29 all, and your arms are tired from smashing the previous rounds but know that you have to keep on smashing anyway, what are you going to do? Keep smashing right? But what kind of smashes are you going to do? Is it going to be with all you have left inside of you, or just enough to get the smash going? This is the physical challenge! This is the exact same situation that my trainee found himself in, after having run 20 minutes, he had 15 more minutes to go, is he going to do it or not? He gave up, he didn't even try doing it half heartedly. Back in my training days, people are trained like that too and there are those who failed just as there are those who passed. Guess what, the coach didn't bother to touch those players who failed, they're bench players. They're said to be the players who 'help us keep the bench warm'. You've got many players who have determination to go through stress test, you simply wont pick the players who just prefer to laze around and just wait for game time. Learn from the army, everyone goes through the same thing.
     
    #39 Iwan, May 9, 2006
    Last edited: May 9, 2006
  20. Iwan

    Iwan Regular Member

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    taneepak, don't forget Taufik who is notorious for his smashes too ;) You simply dont know where he's going to smash or whether he's going to slice it.
     

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