Playing To Win - WD fiasco from a game designer's perspective

Discussion in 'Olympics LONDON 2012' started by yamsyams, Aug 4, 2012.

  1. mindfields

    mindfields Regular Member

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    Fair enough, seems like you stated that the entire season ticket as that price.

    This is the important question.
    If I was a true fan of what? That particular team or of the sport?

    If your a fanatical fan of the team & will put up with anything to see them win then that's one thing. Where we're from we call that Glory hunting.

    To be a fanatical fan of the Sport is another, you can see the beauty of the game & appreciate the skill involved even if it's your most bitter rivals.
    You also recognise bad sportsmanship even if it's your own team doing it.
    The ends do not justify the means if it damages the sport in general. . .
     
  2. Avenger

    Avenger Regular Member

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    well there is another rule that they break which is:
    doing action that detrimental to the sport

    they do successfully destroy the image of badminton in public eyes esp to eropean crowd and british people

    people kept talking about best effort this best effort that, don't forget that they are charged for breaking another rule as well
     
  3. XtC-604

    XtC-604 Regular Member

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    In that case: none of these players should be able to have tattoos or beards etc. Cause in some countries and religions its not acceptable to have those.

    Problem is where do we draw the line. Because obviously this time the BWF messed up real good.
     
  4. dimcorner

    dimcorner Regular Member

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    I think when you start bringing religion into a sports conversation then you start reaching. Just because your opponent has something your religion doesn't approve of doesn't mean you have to follow suit. Stick to rules only. Rules say nothing of beards or tattoos. If your religion is that strict that you can't be in the same court as someone donning these then you really wouldn't be leaving your village to go anywhere anyways, so you can't get shuttles or racquets. Badminton would be the LEAST of your worries at that point. Just participate in the sports beliefs allow you to participate in. I don't think there are any female Iranian swimmers are there? Didn't stop them from trying to run thou (within what is allowed in their rules and the IOC rules).

    With that said, did they break rules? Maybe, maybe not. My issue is not the rule breakage, but that they just SUCKED SO BAD at pretending. You have to protect the image of the sport. Yes that is open to interpretation, but if are somewhat logical at it you can figure out what is good image and what is bad image. Can you laugh your butt off at your opponent when they make a mistake? What if you hit the net and it goes over and you say "SUCK THAT BIACH!" :)

    All it would have taken is for the number 1 players in the world to just pretend they cared. Maybe even just practice some shots and have a close game instead of dumping 6 serves into the net in a row.
     
    #44 dimcorner, Aug 8, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2012
  5. XtC-604

    XtC-604 Regular Member

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    You know what? this could be the exact problem of the sport as to why its percieved as a panzy sport in North America. Everything is too well mannered. There's nothing exciting to talk about. Only since this "scandal" has there been any press at all in North America about badminton.

    We need the Kobe Bryants, the Steve Nashs, the Yaomings of badminton to come forth. We need excitement as fans. Badminton is too formal! It's the rivalries, the words, the hatred that fans like to see! I love the game, i love ridiculing opponents, i love beating someone in so hard that they quit! It's that type of passion that can promote the game away from its panzy sport image.
     
  6. dimcorner

    dimcorner Regular Member

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    Tennis is doing just fine and they are more butt tight than badminton. The trash talk is not a necessity to make it a more popular sport. I think introduction at earlier levels (like middle school/high school) and then making it into an intracollegiate sport will help greatly. But first they just need MONEY.
     
  7. Avenger

    Avenger Regular Member

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    hahaha, this so hilarious
    do they have RULES in BADMINTON about it?

    I am talking about badminton rules and you talked about religion and countries

    well, that's how badminton is
    sorry, if you want something like that, you can go for basketball, golf, etc which is popular in america

    if you still think badminton is for pansy, it might be better for you not to play badminton because you are afraid badminton will tarnish your image
     
  8. XtC-604

    XtC-604 Regular Member

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    Lol? Do you not see the relationship between the two? The whole point of me saying that: was to bring up the topic, of where to draw the line between acceptable and not acceptable. What i stated that if they cared about public image so much then the players shouldn't be allowed to have tattoos or anything religious. I guess my wording is too complicated for your simple mind.

    It seems to me that your english is very poor. I never stated that badminton is for pansies, i'm saying the general image in north america is that it is a pansy sport.

    Promote the sport by making it look like a sport with passion, enthusiasm, love and hatred. That's what sells and that's what works. So why bother trying to be all sincere and mannered about it. Leave that for golf or something.
     
  9. ionoo

    ionoo Regular Member

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    great britain cyclists I read had a bad start and so took it into his own hands and iirc fell or whatever to get a restart. No disciplinary actions taken

    South Africa swimmer did more than the allowed # of dolphin kicks claims he had to do it cause everyone does it, he ADMITTED He cheated, however he gets to retain his gold medal no disciplinary actions once again

    The IOC is a little strange dont you think
     
  10. Avenger

    Avenger Regular Member

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    oh wow, yes, it is too complicated for me
    because I never thought you will bring that kind of troller point of view here
    you might want to apply common sense here
    have you ever seen a sport forbidding someone to have tattoos and beard?
    have you ever seen a sport getting this much attention because they allow their player having a tattoo?

    first rule: not playing to their best effort,
    no it is not even "best effort", they are not even trying to play

    second rule: detrimental to the sport
    this action makes everyone think negatively of badminton
    this scandal does not make certain people from certain religion think negatively of badminton
    this scandal makes EVERYONE who hear it thinks negatively about badminton, this scandal is in many newspapers in UK, top headline in BBC, the times, wall street journal, newspapers in ASIA, everywhere

    with this scandal, Americans would think badminton is: a backyard game for pansy people where the players are cheaters
    if you put everything in this context, then it is clear that the pairs destroyed badminton image successfully

    and even if you think the rule is vague
    IOC and vice president of BWF is there, president of IOC spotted 1 hour prior to the scandal, it is in olympic, and on UK telivision and many other channels all around the world
    like someone said, these pairs dared to do that in this occasion, BWF will bring every single arcane rule (or even the most trivial one) they could find to bring them down

    I will not gonna say BWF is not wrong, they are wrong, but so does the player

    accept it, badminton will not gonna change to drama sport like that
    it will not gonna change until badminton dominated by Americans (and it will be another nba, tennis or even golf drama)
    it does sell in America, but sorry these kind of things didn't sell in other places
    and maybe the first one that needs to be changed is image of badminton as backyard game
     
  11. SolsticeOfLight

    SolsticeOfLight Regular Member

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    Does it make sense to have a sport where it's detrimental to try your best? I'v thrown matches I didn't need to win. Why? Because a tournament has 5/6 games over the span of maybe 13 hours. No need to make it hard on myself when I've already come top of my pool. I've already worked hard to put myself in the position where I've already won.
     
  12. XtC-604

    XtC-604 Regular Member

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    Wow, okay let me simplify it more:
    What i used was called SATIRE. Using sarcasm to a point where it becomes painfully obvious what the actually fault is, so that even you can understand. But seems like i overestimated your command of the english language.

    1st rule: playing to their BEST EFFORT
    Best effort of what? Best effort of winning the match, or winning the tournament?
    Sorry i'm going to say that the tournament matters more than the match that has no bearing on the pair making it past or not.

    2nd rule: Detrimental to the sport:
    I don't believe its detrimental. In fact its brought more attention to the sport. People will watch that "match fixing" game and then perhaps click on related videos. Related videos may include some intense games and that may change their view on the sport.
    It also doesn't make EVERYONE think negatively. If you wish to have an educated debate: please stop using blanket statements that you have no way of proving to be true. Truthfully speaking, my friend actually wanted to try badminton (he is a hardcore tennis guy). Why? Because badminton is viewed as a backyard sport with no pain and sweat. When news breaks out of scandals, there is some passion to be viewed.

    If you set out your task believing it is impossible, it will be impossible. This is exactly what you've done. Your mind set is that : "Americans would think badminton is: a backyard game for pansy people where the players are cheaters" why can't you think of it this way: Americans would think that badminton is perhaps not a backyard game, the stakes are high, passion towards their own country is valued etc?

    Again, refrain from using blanket statements. Who says drama sports don't sell everywhere else?
    One of the most popular sports in China other than Badminton or sports where China is dominant include basketball and soccer.

    So you are wrong on that front. The matter with promoting badminton is that it doesn't get into limelight. Having badminton in the news regardless of bad or good : IS GOOD for the sport. Just imagine, getting badminton into a viral video. Your sport will take off. Don't think so? Look at "planking" or parkour. Planking had people falling and dying! Parkour has people getting arrested. I don't see their popularity dropping.
     
  13. eaglehelang

    eaglehelang Regular Member

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    As already stated/explained many times, they were not using their best efforts to win. Instead they were using their best efforts to lose in order to gain in the next round. In which is wrong, in addition they did in such a blatant way it cant get any more obvious. Lawn bowling calls it 'match fixing' in a similar case.
    In which is 'detrimental to the sport' as in to the image of the sport, obviously. Naturally it will spill over and effect the image of the countries involved and the countries which are strong in badminton.

    Those in North America or countries where badminton is not popular will not bother much, but for those in Asia, such situations are regarded as shameful. Yes, it has been happening for many years, complaints have been made BUT BWF close one eye, that's why it has gotten so blatant.
    If BWF is as strict as certain other sports, players would have come forward saying their coaches/management ordered them to lose.
     
  14. XtC-604

    XtC-604 Regular Member

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    I've also explained it many times: WIN WHAT?
    Win the match or win the tournament: If you were the player, would want to WIN the TOURNAMENT or the MATCH?
     
  15. dimcorner

    dimcorner Regular Member

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    I agree I would want to win the tournament, but I would have done it with enough effort to not arouse suspicion :). I will admit to dumping a match in high school for better seeding, but I definitely didn't dump serves into the net or look like a total dork playing.

    I can see how it would be more difficult to lose given that your opponent wants the same. sigh, no easy way out. I guess single elimination would be it.
     
  16. pjswift

    pjswift Regular Member

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    Do you throw your match by serving into the net six times and hitting out generously?
     
  17. deca2000

    deca2000 Regular Member

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    probably not. But it is because it is not in the interest of his opponent to lose that match. In this case, though, BOTH teams preferred to lose that match. I don't know about you. If I were the game designer, I would be ashamed.
     
  18. eaglehelang

    eaglehelang Regular Member

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    1) That's not the main point. As already stated times in a number of threads discussing this, they broke the rules. They tried to fix the match to gain a more favourable draw in the next round, which was wrong and has been shown to be wrong in other sports. The Lawn Bowling Association called such acts of deliberately losing (by same player) as 'match fixing'. The fact that no money was passed from one party to another does not make it right.

    Why is it when match fixing scandals that involve bribing is huge scandal and can be criminally charged while those that do not involve $$$ some here think is right? Match fixing is match fixing, it just doesnt involve $$$ and therefore, harder to prove.
    If it's ok, then there would not be big hu ha when athletes come forward to say their coach/management ordered/coerced them to lose.

    2) Please also do not compare with team sports, it's harder to prove as they can field a reserve or substitute and give some excuse why the main player/s are not fielded. It's different players, so the level and outcome expected will be different. Plus for some cases, it's a meaningless match as it has no effects to the next round(no motive).
     
    #58 eaglehelang, Aug 9, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2012
  19. dimcorner

    dimcorner Regular Member

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    And they sucked at acting!

    Sorry had to throw it in there again :)
     
  20. SolsticeOfLight

    SolsticeOfLight Regular Member

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    No; there was no detriment to winning nor losing (only top of the pool went through, not top 2). Only to bouncing around when my ankle wasn't 100%.
     

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