question about badminton in UK and counties

Discussion in 'General Forum' started by ralphz, May 22, 2022.

  1. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    i'm curious about county level badminton..

    there are various clubs i've seen.. some of them have asked me to represent them..

    One club that isn't so high level, e.g. most of the players there don't seem to have had coaching.. they got beaten by another club of a similar level.. The club that won said that their team that won was "division 2".

    I'm wondering are these divisions set by the club, or set by the county?

    For example, suppose one club has players all of which have had coaching, their division 1 and division 2 players are pretty good.

    But i'm wondering if another club could have players most of which haven't had coaching and their division 1 team could be terrible.

    If a club is very poor and their players are in their division 1, does that mean they are division 1 county palyers?

    So knowing a division of county player means nothing 'cos it depends on what club it is?

    Does a club have to be at a particular level to affiliate with a county? Or does a league have to be at a particular level to affiliate with a county? or county division?
     
  2. ChanKC

    ChanKC Regular Member

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    This is my understanding of the setup in UK - usually local leagues ran within the city/county area where Badminton clubs located in that city/county enter to play against other clubs.
    Each club may enter any number of teams according to the number of players they have - the format is usually 3 pairs from one club playing each of the 3 pairs from the opposing club.

    Since there will be multiple teams entered the teams are split into different divisions; the placing of the teams is down to historical results with promotion and relegation decided based on the season's match results. So generally you will find long-established clubs occupying the top spots, however they will drop out if the results of the season does not go their way.


    These local leagues whilst often defined as a county area is separate from the county level where one county players play against another counties. The players for county are chosen independently from the club they play with; therefore you may find that a pair could be playing together at county level, but they play for different clubs in the local league.
     
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  3. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Similar to football, the team with poor results will get demoted.

    Usually one would not use the term “Division 1 county players” to describe club level. The player represents a club playing in Division one. It’s entirely possible for a club to field an international and a beginner in the same match.


    A Division one county player would imply the player represents the county (irrespective of the club) and the county team is in the division one of the county leagues. However, I think few people will use this term now. It’s pretty outdated.

    Going back to clubs, a new club may attract very good players. I remember quite a number of years ago this happened in the Middlesex league with some players that had played ex-international. The club had to start down in division five or six and work it’s way up.
     
  4. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Interesting, thanks..

    So by what process would players go from the level of county affiliated league, playing other clubs in the county, to, an actual county level player(playing other counties)?

    Is there some county supervisor who goes to watch leagues to see the quality of games there, and notes down who won, and then picks county level players from among the winners of the county affiliated leagues?

    I've heard of a player being a county champion, How does that happen? Is there a league or tournament, put together by the county badminton administrators, with the winners from all the leagues local to that county, and the winner of that, is the county champion?
     
  5. BadmintonDave

    BadmintonDave Regular Member

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    If it helps you, imagine dividing England into Counties.

    Within those counties you have leagues.

    Within those leagues you have clubs.

    I play in the acdbl league, but am not good enough for the highest divisions yet. I am certain there are at least two players in the league that are county level and are participating in county level competitions. I've seen one of them being coached by a coach I know.

    My cousin played for Hampshire and was coached from a young age. She featured on the front of a badminton magazine once but had to stop playing because of her spine or something.

    I am fairly certain that talent development people for each county, or England as a whole do attend and keep track of friendly tournaments too. If you can find talent that is young, it can be of great benefit to the sport as a whole.

    The club I travel to on Sundays to play in their club night has a great coach there and she has been "called up" to participate in over40s and over50s county tournament. So I imagine Badminton England do have teams in charge of the talent for each county or region.

    If you watch badminton Insights' latest youtube video, it's a vlog where they go compete in an oversees tournament. And has some footage from the Thomas cup, whatever that is ^^.
     
  6. BadmintonDave

    BadmintonDave Regular Member

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    With regards standards, Division 1 of one league might only be as good as Division 2 of another league. It depends how active the scene is, how many clubs participate in that league and obviously the quality of the players.
     
  7. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Yes England is divided into counties. /

    There do seem to be leagues that some people have set up, that are affiliated with particular counties., And clubs can participate in them.

    I suppose that a clubs could be in various county affiliated leagues?

    Also, a club could run its own league just within the club. I've seen that before. A league is a points based competition format, alternative to a tournament..

    Yes thanks, this makes sense, that divisions are relative to particular leagues, and not to players in the club. e.g. if a club decides to partake in a particular league then they enter some players in division 1 of that league, some in division 2 e.t.c. That makes sense.

    When I was early in my badmintoning, I played in a league that i'm pretty sure was coutny affiliated, but I played in a low division, it was in my first year or two of badminton.

    And i've played in clubs that run a league that hasn't had divisions e.g. everybody plays everybody. Or everybody partners everybody.

    Looking at a particular county I see it lists some competitive clubs i've played at..

    Let's look at this as an example

    https://www.middlesexbadminton.co.uk/

    If I look through those it looks like there's

    Mens Division 1-6

    Mixed divisions 1-4

    Ladies division 1-3

    i'm not seeing leagues..

    i'm seeing various clubs that have signed up to the mens, the ladies, or teh mixed.

    It lists "fixtures" which are one club vs another club.. and maybe those are leagues?

    What is the relationship between leagues and fixtures?
     
    #7 ralphz, May 23, 2022
    Last edited: May 23, 2022
  8. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    If you want to play in the county team, play and win county tournaments (preferably gold and silver). Once you start beating the players from your own county, you’ll start to get known as word gets round to the selection committee.

    Enter the county restricted tournament, if it has one and get a result. Your name would get known for selection.

    If you look further into the Middlesex county website into the committee section, you will find the names of the senior squad committee who are responsible for selection.
     
    #8 Cheung, May 23, 2022
    Last edited: May 23, 2022
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  9. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    I see a quite a few leagues with the contact person affiliated to Middlesex.


    Enfield Badminton League Sue Roedel
    Enfield Badminton League D. Southon
    Hammersmith & District Badminton League Jane Airey
    Hillingdon Badminton League Jignesh Khimani
    Hounslow & Staines Badminton League C. Agar
    London Junior Badminton League


    Does the information from this club help?

    https://ebadders.com/iso/league/

     
    #9 Cheung, May 23, 2022
    Last edited: May 23, 2022
  10. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Win the county restricted tournament. There are age group county restricted tournaments which are restricted to people living in that county.

    In your case, enter the Middlesex county restricted, hop off down to the Middlesex Dome, win the tournament and you can call yourself the county champion.
     
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  11. UkPlayer

    UkPlayer Regular Member

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    Those are the leagues - the Middlesex club leagues are Mens, Mixed and Ladies, e.g., Middlesex mens league has divisions 1-6. It says so on the site, click on competitions at the top and then you can select the Mens, Ladies, or Mixed league division tables. The clubs in each division play against the others in that division to win points that decide who wins the league division, a fixture is just a scheduled match between two clubs in a division. If a team wins a match it wins points, if it finishes the season with the most points in the division it wins its division and it will get promoted to a higher division, if it finishes bottom with the least points it will get demoted to a lower division. The club which wins division 1 is the strongest club in the league.

    County badminton isn't really anything to do with club badminton and vice versa. There's no difference between a baofe league organised by a county and one that isn't and there's no such thing as a 'County affiliated club', it's not that formal. There's only so many people who want to organise badminton leagues so it's just often convenient for a county organisation to organise a league and its not only clubs in the county that can participate. Some clubs in Sussex play in the Surrey league. Smaller counties like Middlesex will have a league, but Sussex doesn't have a "Sussex league", instead there are strong leagues within the county such as Brighton and Worthing, Yorkshire has both the Yorkshire League and the York & District League. Some leagues are intentionally created for weaker players, some have 6 players, some have 4. Someone can play for a club in Middlesex during the week because that's where they are living, but travel to play for Essex County on the weekend because that's the County they represent.

    If you go along to Paddocks who are quite well known in badminton circles in the home counties they play in Middlesex Mens league division one and they have county players/internationals/ex internationals playing for the team. They're not all Middlesex county players, some of them play for and live in Essex, it's just that the club is located in Middlesex and it's strong so people will travel further to play there.




    Whereas If you go along to Barnet who play in Mens league division six you'll find players barely beyond Beginners who have no idea what County badminton is.

    I played in various division 1's when I was County level, sometimes for University teams who also play in the University leagues. Usually division one of a large league has the occasional Countyplayer, the league I play in now has some county players that play for the stronger teams but most of us in the league are ex-county/just below county level. Some division 1 leagues are stronger, some are weaker. Sometimes leagues merge into a larger league or separate into smaller ones. Mostly teams and players find their level within leagues as no-one wants a game that's too difficult or easy. County players only really show up for strong matches.

    The county leagues are on this site,

    https://be.tournamentsoftware.com/sport/draw.aspx?id=E5EB6B4E-1245-4A2D-BEE2-1498F5F91DAF&draw=3

    as well as the county/national/junior/masters tournaments. The county teams also play each other in different divisions. There's a huge number of different leagues and competitions. As Cheung said you have to be getting to the late stage of county restricted competitons to play for a County, just as you have to be winning National competitions to play for England. County players are generally playing national level tournaments too, or have played on the circuit. If someone's good enough to play for a County they've been through the process for years and know everyone on the County scene anyway. People often see County players and think the gap isn't that big between a County player and good club players, it's actually huge. Even when I've been going to 3 with them this year I'd need to up my training by 2 hours a day to get on that level and I doubt my body could take it these days.
     
    #11 UkPlayer, May 25, 2022
    Last edited: May 25, 2022
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  12. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    So suppose somebody goes to good competitive clubs and is good, and through that, gets playing in division 1 club leagues and wins those, e.g. you mention middlesex club league (presumably the best level competitive clubs in middlesex send their best players for division 1 of that)..

    How do they end up in a county league?
     
  13. UkPlayer

    UkPlayer Regular Member

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    They will be playing on the Tournament circuit, the country restricted tournament is where the selectors will take notice and pick them for the County team, although if you've got a high enough National ranking it's already a done deal. Club badminton is of lesser importance for County players, if you're that good you will be working with a coach and playing tournaments, many won't have the time to play at clubs. It's not a case of working your way up through playing at clubs, they are ok for practice but you will have to be doing a lot of things outside of them.
     
    #13 UkPlayer, May 28, 2022
    Last edited: May 28, 2022
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  14. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Playing club badminton (even playing for a division one club) has nothing to do with playing with being selected for county league.

    You need to play county tournaments to selected for county teams which then play in county league.

    @UkPlayer We are on the same wavelength but the somehow the explanations are not understood.
     
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  15. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    thanks.. I see the tournaments section on badminton england and the leagues section, which would be county leagues..

    When people talk of a county player, is that when they reach county team level? (so, past county tournament level, to county team level)

    Would any players work their way up from division one club league, to county tournament? Or have they all been county players from a young age and starting there?

    What age does county level start? I did once partner with a guy that told me he was a former junior county level player, He was a fairly average player at the club. I asked somebody about it, they said former junior county player doesn't mean much 'cos how old? he could've been six years old when he was a county junior!! The guy I asked thought that if somebody is young enough / ridiculously young, then it's not hard to be a county player!
     
    #15 ralphz, May 30, 2022
    Last edited: May 30, 2022
  16. BadmintonDave

    BadmintonDave Regular Member

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    Junior means 6-16 years old I believe.

    Senior means older than 16.
     
  17. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    so where does masters fit in there then? i'd have thought it'd be between junior and senior?

    according to this, Masters is 40-70 https://www.badmintonengland.co.uk/on-court/masters-competition/masters-county-competitions/

    So if seniors is > 16, then somebody could be senior but not old enough for the masters.

    perhaps when you say senior means older than 16, you mean some kind of senior junior category , ?
     
    #17 ralphz, May 31, 2022
    Last edited: May 31, 2022
  18. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    You answered your own question :D
     
  19. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    I guess maybe the term "senior" is tournament or tournament organiser specific,

    This link mentions "Badminton England's Senior County Championships" https://www.middlesexbadmintondome.co.uk/seniors.html And the players look basically aged above junior level.

    In contrast, Badminton Europe use the term Senior for their tournaments , and theirs are for people over 35.

    http://events.badmintoneurope.com/cms/?cmsid=340&pageid=5804
    "The European Senior Championships is an event for players over 35 years of age organized by Badminton Europe every second year"
     
    #19 ralphz, Jun 1, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2022
  20. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Well still leaves open the question of, suppose a player partakes in county tournaments but isn't selected for a county team, would you say he is not a county player? I.e. a county player is one that plays for a county team? And if they aren't selected for a team would you say they are not county level?

    Also when you say county tournaments do you mean within the county? Whereas a county team is doing inter county tournaments?

    Thanks
     

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