Richmond/Vancouver - New facility?

Discussion in 'Canada West' started by Winex West Can, May 17, 2004.

  1. TTT

    TTT Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2002
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    too many
    Location:
    Burnaby...and girls, don't PM SmashingBird, PM me
    From a business perspective, it doesn't make sense to open one in Vancouver. The land costs more, you'll be in direct competition with VRC, and you'll have less competitive advantage.

    Yes, I believe there will be interest, but is there enough interest to support the facilities? First of all, you'll need 200 people just for covering the rent of the place. Unless a whole bunch of people from VRC swiches over, I don't think there will be a lot of people willing to shell out $500. Existing VRC members would probably like to play with their friends at VRC, so unless they join the new club, I don't see many VRC members switching over. Also, don't forget about the relationships that some VRC members have with the coaches there, which means they will be less inclined to switch over.

    As for attacting non-VRC members, let's look at some stats. How long is the waiting list at VRC? It's around 20 people I think. So that gives you an idea about the demand for a VRC-type facility. Yes, Richmond has a good customer base and the facility will be very attractive to the residents there, but are enough people? How many people actually have $500 and also the time to play more than 3 times a week to get their money's worth?

    $100,000 is just for the yearly rental, but there are other costs like the preparation of the facilities (painting, renovation, etc), admin and maintenance costs (ongoing), and the purchasing of tournament mats (I think it's like a few grand for each, so say $3000 * 8 courts = $24,000).

    If VRC/ClearOne decides to lower their prices, or that the owner of the land decides to jack up the rent, how will the new facility still be economically feasible?

    Oh...I'm not trying to shoot it down WWC, I would love to see another badminton place opening up. Just trying to analyze the facts. :)
     
  2. kwun

    kwun Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2002
    Messages:
    40,386
    Likes Received:
    1,404
    Occupation:
    BC Janitor
    Location:
    Santa Clara, CA, USA
    TTT is correct to analyse the feasibility from a business standpoint.

    from a badminton fanatic's stand point, it is always good to have an extra badminton facility. no doubt about that. but whether it makes much business sense is another matter.

    and i think the key is what TTT says, whether there is an enough client base to support such a place.

    to look at firstly, how crowded the local gyms are is a good start, are there an overspilling of players in all the gyms now? if so, it maybe a good start.

    secondly, do you see an expansion of badminton in the area? badminton is a niche sports and the players base is not always that strong. there are certainly room to grow on participation. but is there any sign of growth? are there more tournaments now than before? are there more badminton shops than before?

    WWC may have a grasp on this one as he distribute racket, otherwise i would suggest asking the local shops.

    here is a real life story about badminton.

    a two or three years ago, the badminton gyms here in the bay area are very very crowded. there are a crazy overflow of badminton players in the area and which ever open-gyms there are, they are always jam packed. sometimes there are so many ppl waiting it just wasn't worth the time to go watching ppl fight over court time.

    at that time, my thought was, there are so many badminton players, whoever opens up a gym will have little detrimental effect on the participants on the other places.

    lo and behold, a local organization opened up a gym with 11 courts and a good centralized location. it was an instant success and they get a lot of ppl showing up. being opened everyday of the week (first in the bay area) was also a plus. the new gym was so attractive that the old places aren't seeing as many turn out anymore. i went back to one of the opengym that used to frequent, a 8 court gym where the wait used to be at least 45mins if not 1.5hrs, the gym was deserted with a few empty courts.

    the new gym completely drained the players from this other place.

    the success of the new gym wasn't surprising to me. but what was surprising was the effect it had on the old ones.

    anyway, i am sure WWC is a good businessman and will examine the market dynamics. the most important factor i see are two:

    • location / catchment area
    • size and growth opportunity of the badminton community.
     
  3. wood_22_chuck

    wood_22_chuck Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2003
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    7
    Occupation:
    Electronics Technologist
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    yer a commie, TTT! :D

    I'm sure these are points that WWC is considering, and till now, he's been private about 'em. I'm willing to help in any way I can. I'm actually curious how WWC will address these very valid points, which I'm sure he's heard about already. He might be getting input from other sources, and it'd be interesting to hear what the real-life concerns are.

    Oh yeah ... TTT, you're already banned from a club that hasn't started.

    -dave
     
    #23 wood_22_chuck, May 18, 2004
    Last edited: May 18, 2004
  4. Winex West Can

    Winex West Can Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    2,397
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    Hi Tech
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Thanks for all the input. Keep them coming.

    I've given this a lot of thought and gone through the numbers and what not. I think I might have mentioned this in the past on the forum.

    Anyhow, TTT is right. Is there enough interest to be able to substain a full-time dedicated badminton club? I believed that there is and if it offers the right products/services for the right price. Richmond has the highest concentration of immigrates from the Far East and badminton is widely popular. I believed that RBC has a long waiting list (might have changed) but a major factor is the cost (it's dirt cheap).

    Of course, competing with established organizaitons like VRC is going to be difficult but I believe that there are opportunities and enough demand (I know of people who would come from a ways away just to play a couple of hours of baddy). It's going to be hard to have VRC members switching (since VRC just started their new membership year) so it has to be other incentives (location - closer to home, programs, availability of courts, etc.) Like any business, adjustments has to be made over time in response to external factors.

    Believe me that this venture is not going to generating a whole lot of profit but I believe that it could generate a steady stream of income. BTW, TTT, court mats are more expensive than that (almost 2.5x more).

    Let's put the numbers in this way.
    Assumptions:
    1. You play 3 times a week at 3 hrs/each time = 9 hrs/week
    2. You pay for the shuttles using the same formula previously = $1350/4 players = $337.50/year (year = 50 weeks)
    3. $500 membership fee + 337.50 = $837.50 / 50 weeks = $16.75 /week / 9 hrs = $1.86/hour

    So it only cost you $1.86/hour for each player to play in a doubles match. Obviously it gets cheaper the more you play (e.g. if you decided to play 5 times, it's $1.42/hour). The additional cost is in the shuttles.
     
  5. Break-My-String

    Break-My-String Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2003
    Messages:
    728
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    WWC,

    Are you looking for investors or partners in this venture? This same idea has been on my mind for years and I am very interested.
     
  6. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    I agree with TTT's point of view, but let me bring up some "positive" ;) analysis as well:

    If a gym just try to survive base on membership/drop-in fees, it's like a mission impossible. Believe or not, based on my experience (close to various club owners), all the "little things" are actually the "money cow":

    1. Pro shop: equipment selling/renting, re-string services
    2. Food/drink: sell water, sports drink, snack bar, candy, etc
    3. Training program: individual/group training program
    4. Gym renting: rent gym to local tournies

    All the above could be done using very little space and very few staff members, however, the profit is huge when compare to fixed membership fees. In additional, it gives the investors consistent cash flow.
     
  7. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    Also, various choices of membership could also bring in more players, who hate to pay $500 way up front in 1 shot:

    1. Discount for students and seniors.

    2. Introduce monthly, 3-month, 6-month as well as yearly membership. i.e. 12 month - $500, then, montly could be - $70, 3 month - 175, 6 month - 300, etc.
     
  8. LoveJoy

    LoveJoy Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    Good Idea!
    1st...we need a business plan.
    I may be able to connect you with some financing if you require help.
     
  9. Winex West Can

    Winex West Can Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    2,397
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    Hi Tech
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Just want to respond to a few folks.

    Investments/Partners. We are always looking and definitely will get hold of the interested folks when we are ready to do so.

    Business Plan - Definitely. In progress since we are looking at getting a loan from the bank and/or governmental agencies to provide the initial bulk of $$ for setting up the facilities.

    Different membership fees/structures - Definitely. Partners and I have been going through the various types and fees.

    Pro-shop, etc - These are services where we see the bulk of the profit for the facility to come from. Obviously you want your membership fees to pay for 90-100% of the operating costs so that anything on top is just the gravy.
     
  10. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    Very true.

    Membership is the "sure $$$", which at least prevent the investors to lose $$$ at the 1st place. Any additional sales should be the profit, or a small % also go back to cover the basic costs.

    If this is the case, I guess Winex and SOTX will kick Yonex out of Van area soon. :D
     
  11. richho

    richho Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    CSR
    Location:
    vancouver
    S/B,
    Thanks,I know that ,VRC,but the membership fee seems a bit high for me :( for I can only attend during the ' Weirdest times" though,so I am longing for a new baddy facility with reasonable membership fee will be built in Vancouver. :eek:
     
    #31 richho, May 22, 2004
    Last edited: May 22, 2004
  12. Traum

    Traum Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2003
    Messages:
    550
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Paradise, Canada
    Hey WWC. Given your affiliations with RBC, is this new club you are thinking about going to replace the current RBC and give their members a permanent place to play?

    -Rick
     
  13. Winex West Can

    Winex West Can Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    2,397
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    Hi Tech
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Rick,
    Sorry for the delay. Saw this and then forgotten about it. Well, this is something to be worked out with the RBC Executives. Actually there is another club interested too.

    Okay, quick survey. Which do you prefer?
    a) Location in Richmond but with an okay ceiling height (24') OR
    b) Location in South Vancouver (edge of Richmond) but with high ceiling (comparable to VRC).
     
  14. wood_22_chuck

    wood_22_chuck Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2003
    Messages:
    2,214
    Likes Received:
    7
    Occupation:
    Electronics Technologist
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    High ceiling preferably, though not a must.

    -dave
     
  15. richho

    richho Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    CSR
    Location:
    vancouver
    I prefer the location in South Vancouver.
     
  16. Traum

    Traum Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2003
    Messages:
    550
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Paradise, Canada
    High ceiling all the way, even if it is way far down south near Steveston. And if it is in the south side of Vancouver, that's even better cuz that would be really close for me! :D

    -Rick
     
  17. cappy75

    cappy75 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2002
    Messages:
    3,502
    Likes Received:
    26
    Occupation:
    Depot Support Representative
    Location:
    Burnaby, BC, Canada
    High ceiling is good, but more importantly is lighting. It should be a tad better than community center drop-ins.

    Assuming typical highschool gym floors, Playing surface shouldn't be too much of an issue if facility is well maintained.
     
  18. Winex West Can

    Winex West Can Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    2,397
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    Hi Tech
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Thanks for the replies so far.

    Cappy, we are looking at a brand new facility (using existing industrial warehouse space - similar to ClearOne) so we are planning to have a wooden subfloor with tournament court mats (similar to the ones used at ClearOne) and lighting is definitely a priority to ensure that we have proper lighting.

    I've just heard from the leasing broker about the location in S. Vancouver and he wants to verify that the landlord is okay with the use of the warehouse space.
     
  19. Traum

    Traum Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2003
    Messages:
    550
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Paradise, Canada
    Hey awesome! Sounds like things are going along pretty nicely!

    Couldn't wait to see a new facility opening up!

    -Rick
     
  20. LoveJoy

    LoveJoy Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2003
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    High ceiling , good lighting gets my vote.
     

Share This Page